Swallow Boats Forum

Hello,
It occurred to me that this forum would be a good place to start a discussion about what boat we should be developing next.

Our popular 20ft BayRaider is still consuming huge amounts of my time as we refine the production and satisfy orders, but I am considering a year or two from now.

At the moment we are thinking along the lines of a range of Raider boats, from the SeaRaider at one end to perhaps a PondRaider at the other (Better name needed please!).

We have very approximate plans for a 17.5-18ft version, provisionally named LochRaider, and a 15-16ft version, as suggested by Brian Pearson in a different thread on this forum, would also be potentially very popular.

What about a cabin boat version?
What should be the key requirements for any of these boats?
What do you consider as the competition?
What would make you buy one!?
Is there another type of boat that we should be considering as we look to the future?
All thoughts/comments/dreams welcome...

Best wishes,
Matt Newland

Interesting question.

I think a cruiser (cabin) version of the BayRaider would be nice.

I know you already have the 19\\\" Cardigan Bay Lugger, which is a very nice cabin boat. But this water ballast system that you have in the open BayRaider, I think that would be an extremely attractive feature for a cabin coastal sailer too, because of the additional safety it provides. No other small cabin trailer sailer currently on the market has that extra safety.

Would I want one for myself? Not sure, I think I prefer the all-open dayboats.

But since you asked...

Sailor

Sailor:
I very much agree with the proposal of a cabin sailer. But, wouldn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t the 22\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' SeaRaider be a better substrate? - The competition, Drascombe Coaster and the new Drifter, are both 22 feet boats.

Claus

15 -16 ft version for me. A one man raid boat which has versatile uses due to the water ballast. Should be possible to have good performance unballasted and good safety margins with ballast.

1) Spec for singlehanded sailing, with room for friend/grand-child/nervous wife. Because it can be sailed single-handedly it will be safe with non-experienced crew on-board.

2) Fits garage to build and store

2) In epoxy ply will be light enough to move alone.

3) I will obtain a dinghy space at my sailing club in about two years time and maximum size is 16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\', so timing perfect for me. Do not want to leave a boat on a mooring - too much hassle.

4) There seem to be many people who sail who have partners who are not keen. The Bayraider is for families who all sail together, this boat is for all the others.

5) 15/16 ft can be supplied as a kit as per Storm 17 and at an affordable price.

I would be very interested in purchasing in kit form a small cabin cruiser which could be based upon the Bay Raider or Sea Raider. The water ballast and the addition of twin keels could give plenty of accomodation space with good stability.

I presently own a Drascombe Lugger which has the advantage of being easy to handle on and off a trailer but I feel the sailing performance could be improved.

I would see this boat as a direct competitor to the Coaster. The Drifter 22 is a very nice boat but is probably too large and heavy to be taken off and on a trailer too many times. A Coaster is my next choice of boat but I am always looking for something better.

Ian

A new Swallowboats cruiser? 
How about a Bayraider  or  Searaider  with a swing keel?
· The Searaider’s ability to fill and empty the300kg of water ballast on the move using self bailers is a great idea, making her easily tuned for maximum performance or maximum stability - and you don’t have to tow the ballast around on a trailer.
· The downside is that the tanks take up a lot of space needed for headroom and storage lockers. 
· Lead ballast at keel level takes up much less room but increases handling difficulties on shore.  (I can just about cope with the 92kg of lead on the Cardigan Bay Lugger - removing it for easy trailing makes you quite warm after a cold sail!- but I wouldn’t fancy doing the same with 300kg on a raid boat. If you live in a mining area that’s like shifting 12 bags of coal, enough to last the winter!)
· Moving the ballast further below the waterline gives it a greater righting moment per kg. (but all that leverage needs strong construction. Not a problem for Swallow boats.) In effect, you get the same stability for less mass. 

Here’s an example:-
The Mitchell Yachts 15’  Explorer (http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/) has a 100lb bulb at 5ft and two 80lb shafts at 2.5ft generating 1,000ftlbs of righting force at 45 degrees of heel.
No offence to Mukti Mitchell, environmentalist and all round good bloke, but his Explorer looks a bit \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'agricultural\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' compared to the Bayraider. Can’t fault the keel, though. The boat works to windward and is almost aggressively self righting.

What do you think, Matt?

Tony

The Cardigan Bay Lugger looks a great little boat for my sort of sailing/trailing. As much of my sailing is single-handed, I would not be looking for a larger boat, and something around 18-19 feet would fit in my 20 foot garage nicely.

In order to maintain easy launching/recovery and beaching, I would not advocate adding permanent ballast. I do think however that the addition of the water ballast system would be a major advantage to the design.

The use of the twin centreboards hidden under the seats, rather than a single central centreboard, seems to be a good way of maximising the space in a small cabin boat. How does the performance of the twin boards compare?

A transom stern, rather than a double-ender, might provide additional stern boyancy for guests in the cockpit, in addition to giving some chance of climbing back in the boat after a swim (deliberate or otherwise).

Peter

I think given the BayRaider concept of being a more modern, \\\"faster, more fun and safer\\\" version of the Drascombe Lugger (the quotes were what Iain Oughtred said when I cold called him to ask what he thought of Swallowboats efforts!), that there is a market to do the same on the small cabin boat and perhaps rather than Drascombe the model to improve on should be the Cornish Crabbers - something like the Crabber 22. A trailable, seaworthy, small family cruising boat, but rather more performance oriented than the Crabbers with more modern design/construction. Given C.Crabbers prices you should even be able to make a decent profit on it!

I agree with Brian Pearson\\\'s comments. I\\\'ve decided a BayRaider is probably a bit long for the room I\\\'ll have available. I think a water ballasted 16 footer would be brilliant. Cheers.

I kind of agree with Guy.

But the \\\'Cornish\\\' team have got a lot of stuff right that seems to have caught a particular market\\\'s attention.
*traditional looks without traditional maintenance
*stable family/couple oriented platform with no pretense of high performance
*high quality with no compromise to price within the smaller boat market as defined above

Although I don\\\'t know this as a fact, I would not be surprised if they were the first to do these 3 things, and have established a reputation and high resale value as a result.

It is a mistake to think, \\\"if I can sell a similar boat cheaper I will capture their market\\\".

So best not to go toe-to-toe, I would think...

When I think of BayRaiders (and I must confess to thinking of them far more than I reasonably should) I think of Memory 19\\\'s, North Quay 19\\\'s, Drascombe\\\'s, and perhaps surprisingly the Hawk 20. They all provide adventurous, trailerable sailing.

What would an adventurous, performance-oriented, yet traditional looking alternative to the Cornish boats look like? Even if you never made one it would be great to see your design for one.

From the contributions so far it appears that the waterballast system is indeed the key feature for new boats.

Then, there is a divide between a smaller ca. 16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' open boat vs. a cruiser (cabin) version of an existing 20\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' - 22\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' boat.

Swallowboats already have quite a few smaller open boats, which may not have waterballast, but which are nevertheless very stable and sailing very well. (We just had a direct comparison between the Storm 17 and both Raiders in the Morbihan, and the Storm pulled through in all conditions including a choppy F7 without fail.)

So, my thought would be that a new cabin boat would improve the overall spread of the range of Swallowboats best.
 
22\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' would be my favourite length, because you want a bit of comfort insid a cabin AND still have enough cockpit length left for the full crew to sit in the open, and a dog.

The SeaRaider really isn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t a good substrate, it is purpose designed for speed so it has too little beam to offer real cabin comfort.

Having seen and sailed the BayRaider last week, I think she has everything for an excellent cabin version too, except maybe 2 extra feet in length. So, may I suggest to think about a Bayraider Cruiser, which would have 2 extra feet of length built into the hull? She would compare remarkably well against the Drifter 22 and the Cornish boats, which all suffer from trailering overweight, you cannot even step their masts singlehanded.

Claus

Hi Claus, thought of you all while it was so windy last week. Could you please say some more about Storm \\\"pulling through\\\" the Raiders. With Matt expressing possibe interest in a Storm GRP kit perhaps if she is reasonably fast then Swallow do not need a 16 Raider type. I had though the Raider family would outperform the Storm family, quite resonably since I think because of their different design criteria.

Thanks, Brian

Brian,
I had not wanted to say that the Storm 17 did outperform the Raiders last week, but that she went bravely through all the same awkward conditions very well, and performed very nicely, considering she is 3\\\' shorter than the BR and 5\\\' shorter than SR, and had a crew of four fully grown ups. The BR had 2 and the SR had 3 crew.

I would really say the S 17 is so good there does not need to be a Raider 16 as well, at least not immediately as the next boat to be brought out by Swallow.

Claus

So...

Looks like a 22\\\', cabined, water ballasted, performance oriented, BayRaider bigger sibling with lots of manageable sail is next on the drawing board!

:)

Such a boat would certainly interest me and would be more competitve as a compeitor to the Coaster. An alternative to the Shrimper would be too heavy for easy towing.

Ian

In view of the unseasonally wet weather I think any new boat should be 300 cubits long and constructed of Gopher wood.

Hi Jeff,
We laugh at the unseasonably wet weather: we snap our fingers at downpours: we sneer at thunderstorms: we have a lid on OUR boat!
(Er.. and, it must be said, a dry suit.)
Becalmed in the middle of Carsington Reservoir in heavy rain was made much more civilized by the ability to brew up hot coffee in a nice dry cabin. I almost enjoyed the row back to the pontoon.  Only wish Matt could have fitted the Cardigan Bay Lugger with self bailers. After the last drenching I had to empty 3 bucketfulls from the cockpit before I could stop the floor boards floating. Don’t talk to me about water ballast !

About time to re-open the discussion, which kind of Swallowboat boat may be coming next, or which should.

We will be doing two events in France in the summer next year, and in that connection had to look for onshore accommodation. We eventually succeeded, but maybe buying a cabin sailer would be a more economical solution.
So, how about a cabin version of the BR? Anyone else for it too?
C.

I would support such a project although I think the length of the Sea Raider would lend it self to a cabin version. The right combination of performance and trailerability I think would make it a good prospect for good sales.

When is the BR and SR going to be available as a panel kit.

Ian

Matt mentioned BR could be available as panel kit early next year

Claus, sailed on a friend\\\'s Hawk 20 cabin version in the summer. The cabin in quite small, more a storage area. A full canopy tent over the whole boat cockpit length would probably be a much more practical space.

Ian, Brian,
the SeaRaider is not beamy enough to possibly offer any cabin comfort.

The BR is beamier and more multi-purpose. In particular, the BR is using it\\\'s aft length (incl. O/B well, mizzen mast positioning) much more economical than the SR, which I think already compensates for its being 2\\\' shorter than SR.

I agree with what you write about the Hawk, Brian. The Drascombe Coaster is a similar case. Both boats are old designs, the Coaster goes back almost 30 years. I am optimistic one can do better today.
Novel option could be a raisable cockpit roof like in some campervans, and/or a different smaller \\\'foredeck\\\' space, due to general use of jib furling gear from inside the cockpit.
As an analogy, also cars today make better use of limited space than they generally did 30 years ago.
C.

How would people feel about a pop top roof on a cruising boat/yacht, so as to create more headroom. The Norfolk broads cruisers have them but they are not sea boats. I am sure with modern materials it could be designed strong enough. I am worried that it might be a hard sell to the more conservative boat buying public. Any opinions?
Regards,
Matt Newland

I, for one, don\\\'t know what a \\\'pop top\\\' roof is - but I bet Tony could make some humorous comments on one.

Anyone have a link to what they look like or how they work?

Matt,

As an interested spectator who might be persuaded. I see some advantages and some dis-advantages.

A pop top roof would allow the boat to remain compact and you would not have the cuddy look that some day sailers have.

Sails should be easier to handle without the obstruction of the roof.

It would allow more comfort whilst moored up i.e.sitting room.

There is little need for this headroom whilst underway. As long as you have access to the cabin to store items you need whilst underway e.g.Waterproofs, cameras etc.

The disdavantages would be. What would it look like? Are the side walls going to be solid,  cloth material?

Durability, Leak proof.?

Ease of construction.

Let\\\'s see some of your ideas in sketch or CAD drawings.

Ian Cowie

I have sailed Hunter boats from their yard at Ludham www.huntersyard.co.uk they all have lifting cabin tops but need their tent covers on at night to keep the rain out.

Some friends sailed a boat on the Broads were the cabin top lifted with a flick off the switch, it had a power supply to work the hydraulics.

The Hunter boats have no engine so you have to push the top up manually.   

David

In the latest Water Craft No 66 there is an article on the Barton Classic, a Broads yacht with a lifting top. At the top of page 16 there is a picture of the yacht with the roof lifted.

Is this the sort of thing you have in mind? The front of the roof stays in place and the back lifts highest to make a wedge shape.

\\\'Pop top roof\\\'?

Certainly nobody wants a roof top that can go POP!
It must be a given that such a rooftop -when lowered and secured- must be sturdy enough to withstand the worst of weathers out there, and must not be leaking.

\\\'Lifting Coachroof\\\' seems to be the right expression. Thanks, Brian, for that reference article in WC 66. I like that hinged design, looks neat and solid.

Looks, I think especially a lifting coachroof -when collapsed while the boat is under way- would help to keep the boat look pretty, through allowing a low silhouette of the boat. A low silhouette roof also would give less windage at sea and when the boat is being trailered.
Other small cabin sailers today without lifting coachroof must have unproportionally large and boxy cabin roofs, limitating the helmsmans front lookout view. I had that once and would not like something like that again.

BTW,
there is currently some discussion of lifting coachroofs on the YBW forum, http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php?Number=1662115 .

I certainly would not consider aswallow boat owneras \\\'Conservative\\\' , the designs seem to be inotive , certainleywhy not have a Pop top cabin, but would it not be more simple to arrange a well fitting cockpit tent?

Gerald Turner

I would agree with Gerald (above) about a well fitted cockpit tent. This has been discussed on this forum previously. I think that the dodger that was on the BR at Morbihan in May, is a great starting point for a tent to attach to. The dodger seemed pretty useful on its own for basic shelter underway.

In regards to a new boat based on the Bay Raider, with a cabin and a lifting top or pop top, I think the cabin could only provide laying down and stooping accomodation.

Putting a cabin top with useful sitting room on the boat may look pretty strange. So a lower cabin top would need to have a lifting top to provide this. Maybe also extending the cabin sides to the gunwales. Having been aboard a BR last May, and looking over my pictures from the event, I am not sure if the hull has enough volume to make a cabin useful.

I think the Cardigan Bay Lugger with cabin has a more pronounced shear on it, so the coachroof does not appear to be as high as it might be on the BR. I stand to be corrected if necessary on this. Just my opinion.

I am sure Matt has sketches on the the various layouts possible. Will look forward to them. :)

Other considerations are that the mast tabernacle may have to be on the cabin top, and that the foot of the sail will have to raised, with possible loss in sail area. Just lengthening the mast to suit, may not help, as this will create more heeling. The boat weight and stability will already be impacted by the addition of the cabin. So then you look at more ballast and the boat gets heavier, needing more power, creating more heeling, and on and on. 

There are a number of so called pocket cruisers here in North America that use lifting cabin tops for extra standing room. Cataline 22 & 25. Sirius 21. Ensenada. MacGregor, Rhodes. The tops generally lift up vertically on tubular legs, so are horizontal rather than pivoting on an angle at the forward edge. Most have drop sides in canvas with screens. As mentioned in the owner\\\'s write up on the Cardigan Bay Lugger, \\\"they all seemed to be intended for export. You could tell. They were mostly the same shape as a shipping container\\\" Most of these boats have higher topsides than the BR to be able fit in the accommodations. A lot of people want the RV on the water. Is that where this design discussion is going? I don\\\'t think that is what we are trying to get to.

So I guess I am back to the open boat, with dodger and a tent. My present boat has those, and also a small bimini for sun shelter at the helm. How do I fit a bimini on the BR? They are very useful here in the summer when sailing for 6 or 7 hours in strong sun, and 25-30 degrees C heat. Would do well in the southern U.S. too.

Gerald, Bill,
nothing wrong with rigging a tent neatly over the BayRaider, only that does not answer the question of this thread \\\'What Boat Next?\\\'. Because, the BR is already there.

Another point: Open boats are for one clientele, cabin boats are for another. To have both open boats and cabin boats on offer increases the product range spread and thus increases the markets reach.

Also, hard roof cabin boats are better for sailing through the night, and they give better protection in severe weather and protect better from breakers. Cabin boats are somewhat better suited for long distance journeys across open seas.

Thanks for bringing us back on course Claus. Good points.

I have thought more about some points for discussion and design consideration.

I am just asking the questions below to help focus on specifics/likes/dislikes and stimulate more discussion. Maybe Matt already has his design all done. :), although I expect the new shops are taking up much of his time.

Hope you can indicate your likes/dislikes and maybe suggest other points to consider.

Assuming a 22\\\' +/- OAL as has been put forward earlier in this discussion

Beam: The BR is 6\\\'7\\\". Could this be increased at all 6\\\'10\\\" or more for more cabin space? Do you like to be able to row? The wider beam may make this more difficult, or require longer oars.

Cockpit length vs cabin length: Do you like to be be able to stretch out on the cockpits seats, or provide extra accommodation if necessary? This may require the increase beam as mentioned above, for wider cockpit seats. What length of cockpit seats? 6\\\'6\\\"? (I am 6\\\'3\\\")

Cockpit motor well vs transom mounted OB: The former has worked very well on the Swallow designs that have it now. If cockpit size with a cabin is a concern, would the motor have to be moved aft?

Rig: Ketch with a self tending jib as BR, or lug rig as Cardigan Bay, or something else? Free standing spars with no standing rigging? Free standing main with roller furler? Is a 2 piece carbon main spar possible for transport and still have a sail track? Cat Ketch with sprit booms?
Main sheet positioning? Any traveller?

Centerboard/Keel/Ballast: Single centerboard, twin keels, small ballasted keel with centerboard, weighted centerboard, water ballast as BR/SR. Combination of?

Cabin coach roof: Full beam width for more interior volume or narrower with side decks? Some full beam cabins cause a very large step up to get to the \\\"deck\\\". Handholds going forward are not as available.

Foredeck: In a longer boat of 22\\\' is there room for hawsepipe leading to a locker or other space for anchor rode forward? Can an anchor be readily positioned over the stem, or just set in chocks on the deck? The longer the boat, the more difficulty with taking an anchor and rode from a cockpit locker forward, over/around the cabin. Or are you able to lower the anchor from the cockpit and lead the rode forward to the bow?

Cabin interior: Accommodation for how many? 2,3,4? Seating or just sleeping? Provision for head, portable? Cooking space, or out in the cockpit under a dodger?

Maximum towing weight: What does the weight need to be kept to for the most people to be able to trailer without a large vehicle?

Bill,
thanks for putting together a lot of details. All relevant, but they must be put into perspective in order of necessities and priorities.

There is one ruling point missing from your list, and that is the target price of the future boat. No good thinking out details that would push the boat beyond general affordability.

I think your last point, weight, should get top priority. Meaning lowest possible weight, under 500 kgs max. on the trailer. Few people today realise that the low weight issue alone will decide about \\\'trailerability\\\' in future. CO2 reduction legislation will push car sizes and engines down dramatically in the very near future, so in order to remain a true \\\'trailer sailer\\\' for many years to come, the new boat must not put on any much weight through large size or built-in hull ballast. \\\'Weight on Demand\\\' i.e. waterballast is the ideal -and probably only- solution fit for the future.

In that sense, lowest possible weight and lowest possible cost and price, I would favour a 20 ft. boat over a 22 ft. . What really matters is not the LOA, but the waterline length, and there the standard 20ft. BayRaider is already longer than the 22ft. Drascombe Coaster, the Cape Cutter or the Cornish Shrimper.

With best wishes for Christmas and the New Year!

Hi all,
just some ideas, for one people or a couple or two close friends living/camping one week aboard a little cabin-sail-boat.
I thank Matt for all the nice design-work already done.

Bill, I ld follow your last message plan.
- As you say Claus, total weight of boat+trailer is important: for me it s around 500kg;
- water-ballast, but with foot-well in cabin entrance; - prefering small length (minimizing price and hassle, so to use more the boat!): around 16 feet (French canals: free cabin-boating: up to 5m), may be 17feet, with transom (not to immerse wheel-bearings when launching/retreiving), with higher bow/more pronounced sheer (and a more rounded/volume hull?) sheer giving lower cabin-aspect, Bill as you told; beam:1.9m;
- rowing: only fewtimes;
- cockpit length: about 6 feet (wider benches/settee so one could lay-down); not a too wide cockpit-opened space whether swamped; engine preferably in a well;
- ketch rig, standing rigging/tabernacle with possibility to get the mast quickly lowered (bridges); - twin pivoting bilge boards;
- low cabin, mainly for laying-down and keeping gears dry/secure (lockable to store items when at restaurant), with : small side-decks, hatch in front-deck (for anchor line), 2 berths (mostly 70/75cm from bunk to roof)+ 2 sitting (85cm from sit to roof: if there is enough place under/behind these for the twin boards) for people about up to 1.75m (sitting low, for eating/reading before falling aslept, when raining or cold/damp evenings, since sitting low such as inside a sport-car can be comfy with stretching some ones legs?), taller people: under the canopy.
- for the toilet: perhaps small system of www.car-a-fun.de/pl6169... with plastic bag (liquids still could go through the bucket?): Lid-bag Toilet Cactus (but without its special folding seat; could be much lower, under the port-side sitting place.
Berths: 1.9m length including these two (lower) sittings that would have some thicker cushions or small store-box upon them.
If the side-twin-boards don t leave enough place for the sittings, one sitting place is at the middle of the cabin (facing stern)and the toilet sliding stored/centered under the bridge-deck, and in the cockpit at night.
Or under this middle of the cabin could be used the kitchen-box (stove stored in cockpit locker, that can go outside upon bridge-deck under canopy): one ply-sheet+two holes: burner-stove and bowl-sink + flexible water-tank under.

It s only my two cents...
still looking for the small cabin sailing...
I understand compromis/choices have to be made between  ideas!

The problem of a fixed cabin boat for sub 20\\\' LOA, is that what ever you design ,will be a compromise, my current boat is a Hunter 19\\\', it is fine for occasional weekending, but cabin space is limited,the upside is it has a large cockpit which makes live-a-board use more livable with a cockpit tent fitted,
the Europa that suceeded the 19\\\' utilised the space more effectively, but to get to the foredeck you have to clamber over the coachroof.
There are on the market other similar concepts ,such as the Shrimper and Red fox,nee Hunter 20 (both Selecta yachts), Perhaps a design with a main cabin to the rear of the boat with a lower foredeck which would be able to take a double berth under, and a central cockpit would be radical enough to  make sales, I am thinking along the lines of the Atlantic rowboats with cabins both ends .

Gerald Turner

Gerald:
A main cabin at the rear end of the boat - a fascinating idea.:

The transom stern section lends itself much better to a double berth positioning than the narrow bow.

Then, there would be no conflict with the positioning of the heavy main mast or with working the anchor at the bow.

A rear cabin would not obstruct the helmsman\\\'s most important field of view to forward.

The rudder could be operated through a rudder yoke, works fine on the SeaRaider.

A central cockpit would be better protected from breaking following seas.

And even if there was an outboarder well inside the cabin, that could be put to double use too, using your own imagination and discretion.

I think a rear cabin is a truly brilliant novel concept. Good thinking!

Claus

Well Claus ,I have to say that the rear cabin is not my Original Idea, WhenI was sailing at the Moribhan rally 2007, a boat came by of about 22\\\' 25\\\' size with a cabin mounted where the cockpit is normally, with a cat Ketch rig and a tiller which extended over the cabin top to the rudder, the rest of the boat seemed to be left open from the cabin forwards.

I would suggest that it was a home build,as it was a multi chined hull, but it did seem to work !

my next dream sailboat? she could be 17 feet with low cabin, not slow, a nice well thought sailing-camping-machine, with small cockpit footwell, water ballast... 
Among some interesting designs with low cabin, I see: Chebacco (but with more raked transom), Stir Ven, Winkle Brig...

Brian pretty much sums it up for me as light weight and smaller version is what coastal dinghy cruising is all about. Much as I find the BR very impressive its a bit big for the solo sailor. I have considered the Storm 15 and 17 but not sure about the double enders. A 15 or 16 footer with water ballast would be the rizzle shnizzel and skip the 17-18 version. Kit form so I can afford it!

I would add:
a) to be rowable and and to have outboard bracket or well.

b) To be mounted on a breakback trailer

c) rig options eg forward mounted mast with mainsail only or further aft with mainsail and jib to give passengers something to do.

Charles,
not that I myself would see much sense in a cabin boat of 17 ft, because everything must be very very cramped then and the seagoing qualities cannot be too good.
But I think it would be a good idea to start a design process with a  17 ft. hull in mind. Because, if one would succeed in fitting agreeable accommodation and space on a 17 ft. boat, then after transferring the clever solutions found from that finally to a 20ft. hull this would surely result in a very neatly thought through layout and very spacious solution then.
BTW, in the current PBO there is an article about a guy with a 15ft. self-built cabin sailer who has circumnavigated most of England, Wales and Scotland with that, imagine.
(However, one has to bear in mind that home-built boats do not have to be RCD compliant with regards to safety and testing, so very compact solutions are possible that would be illegal in a proper yard-built boat like the Swallowboats.)   
Claus

Claus and each,

just a 18 feet design of a cabin boat:
http://benho2.tripod.com/Ataraxia/ataraxia_review.htm

From this, for you, what would you change?

Perhaps, for me: a some more vertical stem, more freeboard (giving less high cabin), buoyancy and floatation, waterballast and twin pivoting side boards.

Charles

Charles,
since you asked,
these are all very nice little boats you mention, but they are quite conventional. They are on the market for many years already,
but if they have not exactly taken over the market so far, there must be a reason. Too small? Overweight? Poor performance? No RCD? Too expensive? If you like them, fine. But apparently they do not lure you yourself enough so you would have bought any of them.

What I expect from a new Swallowboats cabin sailer would be a thoroughly novel concept with better safety, better space usage, and better performance than what is on the market thus far. The new BayRaider with its waterballast system is a wonderful substrate for a new cabin boat. Swallowboats should not come out with a boat that does not add noticeable better \\\'value\\\' to boat users than the old boats do.

Claus, and each,

You re right, boats I mentionned have a too conventionnal cabin/hull; some with hulls story of last small fishing row-sailboats.

We camp-sailed (with childr.) a Coaster years, (Med Spain coast and rivers): many qualities... but a too high cabin!
So I ll sail another small cabin-boat. 
I mentionned these small boats, with transom, also because more sheer would help visually the cabin (such as in the elegant Cardigan Bay Lugger)? I was just dreaming my next boat!

Excuse-me that my messages were too far away from discussing the BR cabin-boat concept.


Charles

Charles,

No need to apologize for mentioning that fine looking boat. Thank you for the link. Each time we see another boat we learn something and that may be just the small detail we would like to add to a new boat. Or we may see something that we may want to make sure we do not add/use/duplicate.
Discussion of previous \\\"conventional\\\" designs helps us move forward to new designs or improvements of past designs.

As far as space utilization on a <20\\\' vessel, I don\\\'t think there is any thing that is revolutionary, just evolutionary. Sand bags along the centreboard to water ballast as an example.

I am interested in the previously mentioned here aft cabin concept. Would still require something forward as a shelter, maybe just a dodger? Claus mentioned the fact that a boat with a cabin forward does give crew protection from breaking waves. So would we actually have a centre cockpit design? Sleeping accomodation aft, cockpit in the middle, a couple of seats with portable head forward under a cabin top? How would the aft cabin handle an outboard motor and the need to access it to start it, and possibly steer with it in tight situations?

I like the electric option on the boat you linked to. That will become more common going forward. Has anyone on this forum any experience with electric motors? Fixed or outboard type like the Torqeedo?

I also noted the fact that the portable toilet on the boat you mentioned was plumbed for pumping out on deck. That is the only legal way to use a portable toilet on board  in this province of Ontario. Since we are in a relatively closed freshwater system, the Great Lakes, and hundreds and hundreds of smaller inland lakes and canal systems, great care must be taken with the handling of black water.

However, I digress from the topic at hand - boat design.  :)

Here is a project, only to view a sort of front-cabin space with canopy, in an eighteen feet boat; evolution of the cabin/canopy such as in the Shrimper 17, with possibility to close it.

http://fr.cosasdebarcos.com/barco_nuevo_velaligera_49226110071449696757496966514556.html

The folding boards would need to be watertight, and where to store these heavy boards (when open)? problem if these would flex in the middle when walking upon?
With such a cabin but aft, center cockpit and a dodger in front under which one could site down when sailing (small foot-well)?
:)

Yes, that rear cabin concept quite sparks off many new ideas.
I wrecked my brain where I had seen a rear cabin on a small yacht before. Found it:  \\\'Buckler Mk II\\\' (http://www.friday-ad.co.uk/AdRef/F167802/Class/652/Web/FullAdDetails.asp)

Not a very pretty sight today, I admit, but it is amazing how much space they could fit on a 24 ft. LOA boat (including the clipper bowsprit I spose) using the rear space too: Even TWO separate cabins, toilet, inboarder, chart table etc. .

Bill, it beats me why people can be interested in \\\'portable toilets\\\'.? - I know lodza things I would rather do than share a small cabin with a half-full chemical thing. I think they are truly awful.

Bill, Claus and each,
Quite interesting info in your messages.
About aft cabin:
http://www.annoncesbateau.com/display_announce.php?categorie=voilier&lettre=&constructeur=&modele=T7+DERIVEUR&chemin_url=simple&annonce=195706

As the originator of this aft cabin concept to this Forum,I had envisaged
1) a half decked foredeck with a v berth under.
2) a center cockpit
3) the aft cabin does present a few problems with those who wish to use a motor, but I would solve that problem by having an internal engine well on the centre line with perhaps a opening hatch mouted on the roof to stand and control engine from.,or have remote controls for the engine mounted on the rear of the boat , keeping engine smells out of the cabin,the engione would need to breathe anyhow.

As cluase mentioned earlier,the advantage of having an in cabin inboard well, is that you would have a ready made Sea toilet!

I would hope that the boat would be rowable.

Gerald

Charles,
This is a good looking boat but what about the draft? I started a thread recently on the Openboat forum about draft! This boat has 14 inches and the consensus on the other forum was that such a boat would seriously hinder ones ability to beach and launch. Most dayboats have something like 7-8 inches.

John

Claus and each,

just a 18 feet design of a cabin boat:
http://benho2.tripod.com/Ataraxia/ataraxia_review.htm

From this, for you, what would you change?

Perhaps, for me: a some more vertical stem, more freeboard (giving less high cabin), buoyancy and floatation, waterballast and twin pivoting side boards.

Charles

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"... This boat has 14 inches and the consensus on the other forum was that such a boat would seriously hinder ones ability to beach and launch. Most dayboats have something like 7-8 inches.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" John.

John,
you re right: the Ataraxia design may not be so easy to launch/retreive.
my experience with trailer: 12 inches draught can still be easy to launch/retreive from a tilting trailer without getting more than the trailer-tires immersed in (salty) water; the trailer needs to be enough long after its axle (moving it frontwards, in the right way, when possible);
for me, some flat (wide v) after-bottom (without skeg there) is needed to help the hull floating in shallow water?
and a small keel is important (and skeg, not right aft)  to protect the hull bottom when running aground (also when launching/retreiving alone, boat sometimes runs aground upon concrete ramp-sole?), and would help sometimes (with more draught) directional stability?
(excuse my poor English).

Charles

Taking as read my very strong vote for a 15/16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' Solentraider, can I also throw another curved ball. Swallow boats built it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s market on samll lightweight car top boats such as Sandpiper and Osprey. Perhaps they are not very commercially viable, not sure, but there is no doubt about their place in Swallow Boats history. The Bayraider is such a terific boat that it will sell and lead that size of Swallow Boats sales for a long time. Perhaps there is no need for another boat close in size, it would just take sales from Bayraider.

The new Trooper is lovely and will grow a small fleet of 14\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' and perhaps 16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' models.

I still feel that replacements for Sandpiper and Osprey are missing. This area of the market, sailing canoes, small narrow sail and oar boats are popular, people can build in their garages and costs are reasonable. The people who build these first boats can then become builders of the larger boats.

So, how about a lovely very light sail and oar boat along the lines of

http://www.theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com/

Gavin Atkin\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s Light Trow

or http://www.gartsideboats.com/bob.php

Paul Gartside\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s Bob rowing sailing sea skiff.

Or my current favourite
http://picasaweb.google.com/EclecticTraveler/BuffleheadSailingLowerSaranacLake

Bufflehead, Hugh Horton\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s lovely sailing canoe, just longing to be put into production. I will order the first one!!

Brian.

Hello,
Thank you for all your comments. At the moment we are still very busy getting into our new workshop, and finishing the GRP BayRaider design.
I have updated the \\\"on the drawing board\\\" link on your left, with two new designs. One is the BayCruiser, discussed here, and the other is a 24ft pocket yacht that\\\'s been on my drawing board for years. The workshop will have the space to build her, if we can find a customer...
Lastly, we have not forgotten where we came from, and small boats are a real passion of ours. We do have plans for the smaller end of our range which will become clearer in due course.
Best wishes,
Matt

When I first saw the 24\\\' cruiser last week, I thought \\\"wow, that is a big step up from the 20-22\\\' with cabin we were discussing.\\\" Now with the additional posting of the BayCruiser yesterday, I see the progression. Thanks for putting up the first drawings. Will be interested to see details and layouts each. I have a number of questions that I am sure will be answered as you put up more info.

Matt, very nice. Is BayCruiser to be GRP from the same mould as BayRaider with an extra top strake? When I click on the pictures they pop up too big for my screen so cannot see the hull? Brian.

Brian,
Yes. The BR Hull with extended topsides.
If you click on the image and then use your arrow keys you should be able to see it all. Does this work?
Regards,
Matt

Matt,

I experience what Brian described as well. Clicking on the image opens it in a new window, but there are no horizontal or vertical scroll bars on the window. I first noticed that last year when you posted early BayRaider images. Should have mentioned it to you. Thought maybe it was my computer or connection. I now work around it by saving the image to a folder and open it up in my photo editing program (Picasa).

Some of your images load up completely pretty fast, with no scroll bars. Others indicate they are downloading for ages. I have just now had an image open for over 10 minutes and it says it is still downloading. Maybe try reducing the image size on your end. If it finishes downloading the scroll bars may appear, or the frame size may adjust.

Have to say though, I really like how you involve complete strangers with your designs by asking for input. You have a good thing going!

Regards, Bill

Bill, Brian,
Do your arrow keys work to view the full image? See my message above...
Best wishes,
Matt

Try key F11 on your key board this should give you the Vertical scroll bars.

Regards David

ing

clever man. thanks. Brian

The Baycruiser s first drawing shows beautiful simple lines; I m keeping my eyes open, waiting for design progression towards the grp Baycruiser.

Some points I ld like:
- Total weight of boat still under 500kg: possible?
- Grp hull & cockpit (aft cockpit & side-decks grp Bayraider) with (light) plypoxy cabin & frontdeck: possible? also for better insulation under coachroof.
- Cockpit benches: enough long to lay oneself down (1.9m?);
- Cabin: it s a nice low shape in the profile drawing; in my mind, in a (very) small boat, the cabin is a tent and therefore here would become luxurious by tent standards, even if lower in frontward part. Front of mast: opening hatch on top of cabin (airflow, anchor-line).
Sufficient for 2 people: in the aft part (backwards), sitting headroom giving two seats, at each side of cabin entrance, with feet in a well (well in the ballast tank?); 2 sleeping-bunks and a porta-potti place (in the middle / bridge deck?);
- under-hull protection for grounding / trailering (brass with hard-wood keel fitted along the boat, with 2 shallow wooden side-bilges) ?
- 1 hand-pump for draining cabin well (and another for emptying totally the ballast tank, before trailering?). Anchor well. Sprayhood. Tabernacle.

Would it be possible to reef the mizzen or unuseful?

Well said, Charles. I especially agree with the cabin... luxurious by tent standards... frame of mind. The Bayraider cabin looks a little larger than the CBL version but you still wouldnt want to think of it as a liveaboard. Just one point. The fore hatch on the CBL is great for ventilation but for anchoring etc I always go over the cabin top. It is much quicker than wriggling through the cabin, opening the hatch and getting your bedding wet into the bargin then wriggling back again. On the lugger I have lazy jacks for a hand hold, cabin rails for a safety line and with the mast set ahead of the cabin, of course, all the anchor or mooring line work can be done with one arm around the mast. It all feels quite safe!
It is possible to reef the mizzen. See the Technical thread. Not tested it fully yet though.

Matt,

Coming to this thread a little late - but I want to take you back to a conversation we had in the summer of 2006 about the LochRaider (my garagemax boat).

I am now getting closer to being able to move ahead with this and would welcome your thoughts.

B. Regards

Ian

Hello Ian,
Not sure if you wanted other peoples thoughts, but here are mine.
Swallow Boats will be spending time this summer properly moving into the new workshop (we are in, but we have a lot of internal infrastructure - shelves, vacuum extraction, workbenches etc - to set up).
We also need to put some time and effort into marketing our current range more effectively, instead of just ploughing on with new designs right away.
I have had some serious interest in the BayCruiser concept and at the moment that is pencilled in for the Autumn, Winter and Spring, but most new boat development demands a customer #1, so we will see.
If you are interested, then I would be happy to hear from you, the nature of my business is that I cant ignore someone threatening to pay me.
However, I cant make any promises at this stage obviously.

Best wishes,
Matt

Ian, could you expand on your LochRaider please. My \\\"Garagemax\\\" would be 16\\\'6\\\" on its own, down to about 13\\\" sitting on a combi for winter storage. Brian

So, what boat next now?
Any news on the 17 foot Raider, I see one is registered for the English Raid this summer so it must come out soon?

There is a preview of the 17ft BayRaider in the new edition of Watercraft. The prime driver behind its design is to make it light enough to launch from a gently shelving sandy beach. Such as you might find around Cardigan for example...

It looks good. Planned to show it at Beale Park in June

Matt just casually mentioned that the new BayCruiser 23 has been launched in the meantime.
There is a video on Youtube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5ZvlRZcX6Y .
WOW!

I liked the idea of teh elctric propulsion, but I think the system used cost more then my whole boat. Its a Sillette solid bronze job with a folding prop. I also like the Boom strut suppot to the boom. I could be tempted by that, but I still like lazy jacks to catch the sail when it comes down.
The decking is beautiful. I saw it a the London Boat show in January.

BayCruisers 20 and 23 are certainly exquisite boats, but I suspect they are out of financial reach for many.

So how about a basic and budget priced 20 ft. GRP cabin sailer to directly compete with the Drascombe or Devon Coaster?. Can be very basic, owners can add comfort themselves bit by bit.

Hi, Claus.

I agree. A sort of flush deck BayRaider would get my vote. Just enough of a cabin to sleep two in the dry without messing about with wet canvas. Low enough to hop up onto easily for mooring and clear of trip hazards. Totally sealed (and access not required) in splashy weather or incase of a swamping for massive positive buoyancy - and so you can be sure that your sleeping bag stays dry.  An expedition BayRaider for go-anywhere sailors.

Matt has probably got ideas about that. I think there are a number of factors. Building in GRP will be heavier. That could spoil one of the BayCruiser20s prime selling points, in that unballasted it is light enough to use an unbraked trailer and it is really easy to tow, launch and recover. I can confirm this as I have just launched singlehanded in about 200mm of water without any problems at all. I think cost savings could also come about if Matt stuck to one fixed design. Each ply/epoxy boat ends up being almost a one off. But again, that is one of the selling points of an epoxy/ply Swallowboat. You can order it with all sorts of variations. Maybe it is not a direct Drascombe competitor but is in a different market. The important thing is for that market to be big enough to keep the orders coming. I must say that I used to have a much loved Drascombe Dabber, but having had a Swallowboat I simply wouldn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t think of a Drascombe again. The Dabber is the best Drascombe, but the new BayRaider 17 will improve on it in every way.

Deleted. Software bug. Claus

Software bug. Deleted, Claus

Tony,
>An expedition BayRaider for go-anywhere sailors.<
Good idea, I like it.

Gives the proposed rustic and inexpensive cabin boat a direction and purpose. Well done.

Keep the ideas coming.

Claus

Julian,
speaking about what boat possibly NEXT, I take it you are not in favour of a cheap basic cabin boat. So what boat do YOU suggest as next?

I think Swallow Boats are making great strides in developing innovative boats which are going to develop small boat cruising. I did consider purchasing a Bat Cruiser but I cannot afford the new purchase price. As yet there are not the secondhand examples which are within my price budget. I might need to wait a few years for that to happen. I have just put a deposit on a 20 yr old secondhand Coaster which I am going to be able to afford.

A more basic cabin boat (which the Coaster is) would be an attractive SwallowBoat option. I am sure there is a market out there for an affordable mini cruiser with modern innovations which Matt and his team are becoming known for. The Bay Raider 17 is a welcome addition and as it is being marketed as a self build option.

Matt and Swallow Boats should keep up the good work and I regret I will not be able to support the brand at this time.

Ian Cowie

Hi, Ian

Dont you hate it when that happens!

\\\"I did consider purchasing a Bat Cruiser...\\\"

Tony,

My fat fingers,

A Bat Cruiser would make an impression at a Drascombe Rally.

Ian

I\\\'m a bit out of sequence here. Actually been doing some work!

I think I was trying to make the point earlier that a cheap, basic version of the BayCruiser 20 is probably not achievable. One of it\\\'s big attractions is the light weight augmented by water ballast when you need it. Getting the light weight on a cabin boat involves quite a use of foam cored construction and other tricks, which are not cheap. If you just mould it in solid fibreglass, it is going to be much heavier, with a lot of that weight up in the cabin superstructure, where you don\\\'t want it. To counteract that, you will need more ballast, which makes the whole thing even heavier.

On the other tack of a simple camping version of the BayRaider with a diddy cabinette, I\\\'m not convinced that there is a big enough market. I think there are a lot of people who want an open dayboat for family sailing, with the possibility of overnight camping under a tent, and the BayRaiders do that really well. There are also a lot who want a proper cabin where you can keep some creature comforts on board so you can just hop on board and go for a sail when you get the chance, and everything you need is in place. The BayCruiser does that. I don\\\'t think there are many in the middle who just want a sleeping bag sized cuddy on an otherwise open boat. But I may be wrong. I usually am.

Where the real frustration for many lies is in the almost complete lack of second hand SwallowBoats on the market. I\\\'m afraid they are so good that once you\\\'ve got one you won\\\'t give it up!

I wouldn\\\'t be too concerned here about what seems technically possible or impossible. This is to sound out what kind of boat many people would like to see next from Swallowboats.
Up to Matt and Nick then to find a solution. They are creative enough to be able to find solutions where we ourselves see none.

BTW, in a cabin sailer, to achieve self-righting one would not necessarily have to have much ballast, because the buoyancy and geometry of a cabin roof in connection with an extra lightweight rig (unstayed carbon windsurfer masts) may achieve self righting without much extra ballast. 

Again, how about a basic and inexpensive expedition cabin sailer?

Hello,
I am really interested in the idea of a BayRaider with a basic cabin. As many of you will know, the Baycruiser 20 started out like this, and we planned to use the BR20 GRP hull mould as a starting point.
In the end we decided that most people would prefer a pocket yacht, with a more usable cabin, and we ended up with a different hull, with more beam and more freeboard. The cost of the BC20 is more than we had initially hoped but it is difficult and expensive to make a boat of her size, as light as she is. Recent sales success with her has convinced me we made the right decision.
Is there a market for a basic cabin version of the BayRaider 20? We have had our fair share of market failures over the years and it is always difficult to try to predict demand for a new design. We have been lucky recently and always had a paying customer or 2, to help finance the cost of a new design and this always helps.
I have actually done some initial sketch work on a \\\"Crawl in and die\\\" cabin for a BR20 but you do hit some problems. The first is the centreboard, which is right in the way. One could put up with this, but it also restricts comfortable seating (with legs outstretched) unless you sit facing aft. Second to get comfortable seating you end up with a cabin that looks too high to my eye. Is sitting headroom inside important?
I think a case could be made that the watertight integrity of the space was of more importance and that with a good spray hood and cockpit tent, you could manage with less headroom in the cabin.

The sales success of boats like the Coaster leads me to think there is a market, but we are too busy over the next few months with several new designs, including the BayRaider 17, and a GRP version of the BayCruiser 23. We are also toying with the idea of invigorating our range of kits with a series of open canoes, with auxiliary sail and electric options.

Keep the thoughts coming; it is great to read your ideas and opinions.
Matt

So, with your blessing, we can phantasize a bit more.

Re an inexpensive basic boat, I think the time is right for it:

There is a new boat getting a lot of attention on the continent, a new 18\\\' Varianta. Its a basic cabin sailer for a bargain price of under €uro 10,000.00 incl. VAT. Designed by the same people who did the Alinghi, and built by Hanse Yachts, so it\\\'s cheap AND good, which is always the best possible combination.
However it\\\'s a keel boat, so it\\\'s pretty useless for our kind, but anyway it\\\'s an attractive proposal for the market.

Re the centreboard issue, how about two sideboards in cases on the inside of the lockers? -There is this new 17\\\' sail & oar boat design \\\'Wikinger\\\' by Herbert Glas of Bavaria, which has two ballasted sideboards. Can be seen on this photo : http://www.merkur-online.de/lokales/nachrichten/wikinger-sticht-491572.html . Herbert Glas was / is a leading builder of Tornado racing catamarans, he knows a bit about fast boats.

Then, no holy cows here, how about leaving the waterballast system out to gain more cabin height, and in order to retain the self-righting use ballasted boards or some lead low in the hull instead? The cabin roof can help the self-righting too. If there would be unstayed masts, the compression loads on the cabin roof could be minimal, and that would save weight.

Tony,

What is your practical experience with the twin daggerboards on the CBL?

Hi, Johan.
In a word, good!  I suppose the boat would go better - especially in light winds when drag will be more of a factor - with one deep centre board, but I get hull speed (5.8 knots) a reach in any thing over f 3 so no complaints. (Oh. I should say that they are not dagger boards but pivoting airfoil sectioned types with rope uphauls - no down haul, gravity takes care of that.)
More details later..

Hi Tony,

Do you keep both foils(sorry)permanently down or do you shift sides when tacking?

Johan

Hi again, Johan.
More about bilge boards on the CBL:-

As I said earlier, a centre board is going to be more efficient but the design of anything involves compromise, especially boats!
Here are a few random points about the bilge boards as fitted to the CBL:

In the cabin, plenty of foot room just inside - where it is most needed - and a shelf each side on top of the cases. This is the main reason for having bilge boards in the first place but, when well designed, not the only advantage. If and when Matt builds a CBL with a centre board we shall see if performance is compromised or, in fact, enhanced. I imagine the choice of sail plan is more of an issue....   
When  heeled well over, water gets into the space outboard of these bilgeboard case, probably through the pivot. I have not bothered to fix this yet as it makes a good wine cooler on one side and a sort of coolbox for fresh food (in waterproof boxes) on the other. Just remember to sponge it out at the end of the day!
Under power, the boards self-park at about 4 knots. Shut the throttle suddenly and they drop down again with a bump.
In theory, raising  the windward board should reduce drag but I cant say Ive noticed much difference. Try to tack with one board up though, and you will wonder what has gone wrong!
On a run you can raise the boards at least halfway without rolling problems.
The CBL doesnt point as high as other Swallowboats (Unless you use the jib) – I think a function of her lug sail rather than the bilge boards – but she makes very little leeway. Apparently much less than more well-known luggers.
Strange things happen in shallow water.  Once the boards touch bottom you cant lift them – unless you can move forward  at the same time.  Approach a beach too closely with the boards down and she will literaly walk up the beach -or even park herself on the trailer!  (Each wave pushes her forward a little and the boards stop her sliding backwards with the undertow.) Not a trick I perform on a regular basis for fear of damage.
To sum up, bilge boards on the CBL are easy to live with and, in fact, add to the boats character - without too many performance issues. (and, in case I created the wrong impression, by the way, I love the balanced lug for its reaching power and ease of use.)

Hi, Claus.

If we are talking  about non-Swallowboat day sailers how about a Hawk 20?  Not really my kind of boat but its fast, sea-worthy and well liked by owners, it seems. Cain version about £22k. Main disadvantages are weight ( just try rowing 816kg, inc nearly 400kg of fixed lead ballast) and a dirty great Seldon mast. (nothing wrong with it but Ive seen folks struggle to set it up.) http://www.hawk20.co.uk/index.htm Too heavy on its braked trailer for lugging all over the country/continent as Swallowboaters seem inclined to do. So do let us keep the water ballast!
I like the unstayed mast, ballasted boards etc.  Thats what I have on Four Sisters, along with a dollop of lead bolted to the bottom, unfortunately. In fact, if  Matt could bolt all my favorite bits of the CBL onto a water ballasted,  self draining Bayraider hull, I might be his first customer for the BayRaider Expedition Model! 
I would want  to swap the washboards for a Lewmar Ocean hatch (quickly slammed shut to keep the ocean out) ......and I suppose I would need a pretty good price for Four Sisters ....and a promise of immunity from physical harm from family members who have warned me what they would do if I ever tried to sell her!

Tony,
the water ballast, I love it. But no need to keep it just for itself if it\\\'s not really needed. If they can do a lightweight cabin sailer that is self-righting without -much- ballast or waterballast, that would be even better. It\\\'s a tough design challenge for sure, but if someone can do it, it is Matt.

HI, Claus.

Agreed. Less to pay for and less to go wrong ... and self-righting after a knockdown by any means possible is just what I want... but wasnt the point of variable ballast that it wasnt there when you DIDNT need it (towing, light winds, racing with experienced crew)  but it prevented a capsise when you DID need it ( heavy weather, fishing, or yours truely on the helm)?  I think I would rather not capsise in the first place for preference.
BTW What do you think of using a Lewmar hatch to replace washboards?

I have only just caught up with the exchanges about a new Swallowboat design. I had emailed Matt earlier this year asking about the potential for putting a small (crawl in and die) cabin on the BayRaider (with its beautiful shaped hull) in the form of the rounded cabin seen on some Golant Gaffers ie low, with small windage and little resistance to water breaking over the boat. Mostly I expect these would be used for storing stuff like fishing gear and charts, but offering the opportunity to sleep overnight for perhaps 2 successive nights. If you go for a larger hull then you run into the difficulty of moving the boat around the country and the market is awash with low cost secondhand (though often horrible looking) trailerable boats. I watched a Hawk 20 being sailed in Ireland and was impressed by how stiff she was in a strong breeze. Closer inspection suggested a heavy boat & in fact they ofetn seem to be kept on a mooring. A more cabinised version of this idea is the very popular Shrimper and a recent import from China, the Tirion, though this has a keel which rules out easy launching. As to rig, I would want something simple, efficient, easy to put up and to reef in a blow, not an immitation of a bygone era.  It\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s also worth being realistic in imagining how such a boat would be used. For sailing about the Carrick Roads, port hopping in good weather with some safety margin but not for going to the Scilly Islands or France. For that there is a wide choice of reasonably priced secondhand keelboats (with high running costs).

I thought Matt had summed up the right solution in his latest posting on this thread, though it must be hard to predict what will sell in reasonable numbers.

Talking of twin bilge boards. I had them on my old Winkle Brig and they use them on the Drascombe Drifter 21. They are fantastic for freeing up cabin space. They were the main reason the Winkle Brig, at only 16ft, had such a useable cabin. I never sailed with both down. I either raised and lowered them as I tacked, if I was feeling energetic, or I just put one down and left it at that. It didn\\\'t seem to matter or affect performance much if the board was on the windward side, but then it was a very slow boat anyway (part of the reason I sold it). The fully raised boards projected slightly and acted as bilge runners when you dried out, but they must have added a lot of drag. They were weighted to drop. The only control was a line to raise them with. You can get an idea of them form the photo of her dried out below.

How about this for an idea:take a CBL or Storm 19 hull,possibly stretched by a foot or two,properly ballasted,with a self-draining cockpit;add hinged lifting cabin-top.See McGregor version!

Johan,
You have to remember that MacGregor, Baden-Powell and all of the early canoe cruisers were barking mad! These were the men who climbed Mount Everest in tweed jackets and stout shoes with a couple of sandwiches as supplies and thought dieing in the process was \\\"A jolly good show, what?\\\"

Hi Tony,
a cabin sailer offers more options for a designer to achieve self-righting than an open boat. Just remember the ocean rowing boats or the rowing lifeboats. No ballast -or very little-, but still they could flip back from an inversion.

The starting point and may be key issue for the proposed basic cabin boat is simplicity and low price. To postulate a fullsize waterballast system for this boat would add complexity and cost. Better avoid it so IF self-righting could be achieved in a simpler or cheaper way, even if that would mean the trailering weight would have to go up from the bare minimum, say by just a 100 pounds.

I do not know the Lewmar hatch you mention, but if it\\\'s an expensive thing it should not be built in as standard. OK if owners wish to retrofit it when they have the need for it and spare money. I like the idea of a basic boat that people equip and refine as they go along. More fun that way, and a low entrance investment threshhold to begin it all with.

I do think sitting headroom is important.

AND that it can be provided in connection with a low cabin roof.
AND no centreboard, and no sideboards or bilgeboards required.
AND self-righting from a knockdown.
AND decent windward performance.

How?: GRP BayRaider 20 outer hull shell.
No waterballast space, no centreboard or bilgeboards, just a central shallow long keel structure with a somewhat weighted sole, and with two NACA cross-section profile bilgekeels.
Cabin roof from lightweight foam material with positive buoyancy.
Cabin roof superstructure geometry to bring AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability)-with hatch open- to around 110 degrees or better, in connection with two unstayed masts with own positive buoyancy.
One ACB tank (Asymmetric Capsize Buoyancy)to aid righting from inversion.
Rudderblade with integrated electric pod motor, or a stainless steel rudderblade head sturdy enough to mount one lightweight 2.x HP petrol outboard engine on it.

What do you think?

I\\\'ll stick me two pennorth in now!

Why not go for something more escoteric ,..like a polynesian Proa,not many of them on the ready built market .and something that might sell,there is an over abundance of conventional boats on the market both new and used.

OR as I had suggested before a centre cockpit boat with a cabin in the stern ala the atlantic row boats

Gerald

@Claus,

Any thoughts on an asymmetric lifting keel/\\\"off-centre board\\\",as on the I.O Wee Seal(in WC57)?

Hi, Gerald.
Proas  have a lot going for them as a coastal touring boat; fast, light, seaworthy and beachable ...but I would think, better for a warmer climate than ours.(All that speed-induced spray!)  I spoke to Matt about them some time ago and he was sure that the UK market for a cruising proa was very limited to the point of non-existence. (But, he has often said that he will design and built anything if folk are willing to pay for it. Sort of the opposite approach to Henry Ford.) The centre cockpit or stern cabin idea has mileage in it ,too, if you can work around the disadvantages of both ends and both masts being inaccessible....and make it look pretty.  Probably not so good on a BayRaider based hull, though.

Hi, Claus, Matt.
I cant argue with Clauses  suggestions – not knowing enough about the dynamics of small boat design – and assuming that the boat can be self- righting and will make to windward  I can see nothing but advantages to them.  I would quite enjoy a boat like that.
I will stick with the Lewmar hatch, stolen from the ocean rowing guys. http://www.oceanrowing.com/All_Relative/photos/5.htm  Expensive, I agree, at about  €300 but what else is so quick and easy to fit for the builder and can make a cabin totally stormproof in an instant?  (http://www.lewmar.com/product-listing.asp?action=search&type=19 )
Without water ballast, has the BR hull enough form stability to avoid being knocked over by every gust?  Could a little lead in the bilge fins compensate for its loss without making her too heavy to trail or move  in light airs?
Sure, removing the tanks would allow a lower cabin top for the same sitting head room but I don’t particularly need sitting headroom while sailing. I DO need a boat that can stand up while in an f6. Id far rather have a bomb-proof boat and create the headroom with a sprayhood/cockpit tent combination when I need it port.  This does not mean I would prefer a tent INSTEAD of a cabin. The cabin needs to supply warmth and comfort (something it does far better than any tent) without dominating the design with demands for ever more accommodation.  The cabin plus sprayhood combo on the CBL is about right. You can take off your wet gear in the shelter of the spray hood and keep the cabin bone dry.
Keep the self draining cockpit so the boat wont be troubled  by a stray wave or fill up with rain on a mooring. Built in cockpit bilge pump with a feed from the cabin in case of accidents. 
I  don’t like the idea of a petrol engine on the rudder. Too inaccessible, perhaps, and in a 20 foot BayRaider  surely it isn’t in the way in its present position?  A built-in electric motor permanently in the water, either on the rudder or as a sort of saildrive leg, would worry me as a source of drag.  Electric motors are so compact it would be quite easy to make a retractable mount in the BRs outboard well. An electric system will survive a dunking better than your average 2hp motor, too, and I am assuming that a BayRaider Expedition ( not a catchy name –but a descriptive one) would get more than its fair share of dunkings !  Battery re-charge still a problem even with a stack of Torqeedo-style clip-on lithium cells, but reading this http://www.torqeedo.com/en/hn/products/cigs-solar-charger-62-w/product-description.html  gives hope for the future.

Hi, Matt.
While on the subject of stability .....

I was working on my boat at the SC the other day, so not sailing - few people were as it was  a weekday – but took the time to measure the windspeed.  25 knots gusting  to 28, not unusual  in these parts.  With a fetch of about 2 miles across the water waves had built up to about 2 feet maximum, plenty of white horses and streaks of foam.  The reactions of sailors coming in for lunch was interesting;
Windsurfers – all smiles , loud talk, obviously having a great time, the word “fantastic” in use a great deal.
Safety boat crew on sit-astride RIB -  no big deal, a bit flipping cold, matter-of-fact attitude.
Experienced crew of a heavy, 2 masted dinghy  -  pale, tight lipped. Did not go out again after lunch.
My point is that this kind of wind is not at all unusual  these days (Climate change, is it?) and sailing any new boat design in such conditions should not feel like a near death experience!  We need the stability of a RIB and the bomb-proofing of a sail board!  Is it possible?
NOTE:-
A force 6 or 7 in the Ionian produces a sea as shown in the photo.  I would think twice about setting out in such a wind myself but have often needed to fight my way home against winds up to F5 to 6. Its the way the winds are in a Greek summer.  I usually drop all sails and motor home, enviously watching the windsurfers!

Thinking of an expedition BR, the Character Boats Coastal Weekender has some of the ideas people have talked about, but is quite heavy I think.
http://www.characterboats.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57%3Acoastal-weekender&catid=34%3Ademo&Itemid=95

No, none. Sounds funny.

But why not, any idea welcome that helps to put together an easily trailerable shallow draught cabin sailer based on the existing BayRaider hull which is considerably more spacious, better sailing, a lot safer, prettier and not more expensive than -say- a Drascombe Coaster.

@Claus,

The idea is to incorporate the centreboard case into the bunk-front on one side.There are obvious trade-offs,maybe Matt´s computer can quantify?

@Tony,

On the SB website CBL construction photos,the keel-cases seem to show a toe-in.When teaching small kids to ski downhill,this is the brake/stop position!Can you comment please?

Gerald,
I agree. I too do not see any big market for a new boat that is really another  \\\'conventional\\\'. This better be novel and uncompromising in looks, simplicity, toughness and low price. Dare to be very different.

I myself would burn for a centre cockpit boat like you proposed.

I thought I would add my list of desirable characteristics for the new Swallow (Expedition) Boat. Only the first should have priority, otherwise in random order:-

The boat should look beautiful
Forward cabin only, room to sit upright, enough room for no more than 1-2 berths. Access through Lewmar type hatch, not a sliding hatch.
Self righting
Draining cockpit
Robust & simple
Built to a budget but can be added to by owner
Outboard in well
Easy reefing
Sheds water coming over the bows
Probably based on BR hull
Sail to windward efficiently, probably with a centreboard system
Can be beached for picnics
Storage in cockpit lockers
Minimal weight to mast & spars
I enjoyed Tonys comments on wind strength vs who enjoys going out on the water. All too true. So this boat should be as safe as possible in a blow. It has to, within reason, get you home, so water ballast is desirable

Alistair,
THAT boat is there already, it\\\'s called \\\'BayCruiser 20\\\', you can order it today. It\\\'s excellent, but with all it\\\'s features it\\\'s not a basic budget boat. We were speaking about what boat should come NEXT. Certainly not another BayCruiser 20, that would not make any commercial sense.

Hi, Johan.
The toe-in you describe from the build photos is an optical illusion, I think.  Matt will correct me if Im wrong.  Certainly, I am not aware of any snow plough effect  slowing me up when sailing with both boards down!

Incidentally,  two boards have a greater wetted surface than one and so it would be reasonable to predict that the CBL would sail slightly faster with the weather board raised. In practice I find that whatever difference there is, it is not large enough to register on the speed readout on my GPS . (Garmin 76)
I habitually sail with both boards down on all points of sailing mainly because my crew objects to moving towels, bottles of suncream, etc when she has \\\"just got comfortable\\\". (Whacha gonna do?)

Claus,

The proportions I had in mind for the boat are different from the BC20. Much more like The Highlander 18, but built around the innovations incorporated in the BR20.

Re the Expedition version of the Baycruiser concept:

I have always been intrigued by Shackleton\\\'s achievements in sailing the James Caird (I believe that was the name) an approx 20\\\' openboat across the southern Ocean from Antarctica to South Georgia. This story is truly a testament to how seaworthy an openboat can/could be...  though few people these days would wish to emulate every aspect of this journey.  With this example as an inspiration I have frequently (most days!)day-dreamed of sailing over the horizon in an open micro cruiser. Surely with modern materials, designs and construction techniques together with modern \\\"micro-\\\" and safety technology e.g. GPS/Chartplotters; LED lighting; Micro-cookers; VHF & EPIRBS; breathable fabrics; etc etc it ought to be possible to accomplish similar passages in comparative safety.

It would seem to me that the simplest way to make an open boat into a closed boat for truly inclement weather is not necessarily to fix a cabin onto her: how about the option of removable decking (stored in the cockpit lockers) to enclose the open cockpit and thus shed green water coming over her> Add a couple of opening hatches for the helsman and crew beside the helm which can be made weatherproof with a canoe-style sprayskirt.  This adaptation alone, if Shackleton\\\'s example is anything to go by, would probably enable the BayRaider to cross oceans.  Nobody is suggesting that this would make for a comfortable passage but it would probably make passagemaking achievable for the hardy (should I say \\\'hardman\\\') sailor.

If I was to consider crossing an ocean in such a boat I would want a rock-solid rig; the ability to manipulate the sails from the helming position and safely heave to for hours/days on end while holed up under the deck, and to be able to deploy a series drogue as a survival tactic (though I suspect this might end up being used quite frequently) - which would imply a strong point designed into the boat from which to deploy the drogue.

I would also want a powerful, precise, reliable, non-electronic self-steering mechanism.

Am I barmy to even to speculate in this way ?

Sitting in freezing green water with a spray skirt to stop me sinking doesn\\\'t really sound like my type of sailing! Each to their own though.
Regarding Shakleton, Bligh et al in their extraordinary open boat voyages. These were two of the most stunning voyages ever, but bear in mind, we extol these because they survived. There were an immensely greater number of deep ocean, open boat voyages started where the sailors were never heard of again. In a similar vein, lots of people ask me if I could sail across the English Channel in my boat. I answer that people have sailed across the English Channel in bath tubs, but that doesn\\\'t mean that they are suitable vessels for the journey. Don\\\'t base your choice on freak successes. Look at the dull, boring plodders that succeed so often we don\\\'t notice them. One of the most wildly succesful long distance small boats is the Corribee. Nothing exciting about it but it does the job time and time again. Maybe there is something we can glean from it? How about a BayRaider with ballast bilge keels which doesn\\\'t invert in the first place? Make them retractable for beaching/trailing? I\\\'m not keen on all this self righting stuff. I don\\\'t want to invert in the first place!
http://www.google.co.uk/images?hl=en&q=corribee&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=gxTpS6aIKMPgsAbtkNSWCA&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CD8QsAQwAw

@Claus:

Aft cabins,on Norwegian Nordlandbåter.The one on the left at least is a replica,the ominously-named \\\"Drauen\\\" (Sea Zombie).When you see green water and sea-weed in your boat,it´s Drauen coming aboard to get you!

Thanks Johan.
Here some more recent designs.
These boats weigh next to nothing and are tough, tough, tough.

Hiya,  All.
My view, Julian,  is that with a lightweight boat like the BayRaider  you can easily tow it down the motorway to interesting places to sail, using ferries to cross the  nastier bits of sea.  This avoids the necessity of passage making – possibly exhausted by bad weather, at night, unable to leave the helm, etc. etc. you get the picture.  If you like that kind of challenge, fair enough, but I will be applauding from the sidelines.  (Not that the BR or BC could not take on the Channel in the right weather window. If a Redfox 200 can do it.......)
A BayRaider with ballast keels?  Im sure it would make an excellent sea boat -  but would it be any better than water ballast? It would be a darned sight harder to tow, launch and recover!  Mukti Mitchells Explorer    http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/explorer/  addresses the problem quite interestingly but the keel assembly adds £1,500 to the cost. That works out at about 10% of the total, more if you are building her yourself. ....and, of course, its extra weight to tow and extra mechanicals to go wrong!  I think I prefer the variable water ballast system.  Fill to sail, pump out to row.
Talking of rowing, Claus – I do think that ocean rowing boats can inform the design of an Expedition BayRaider. These things are designed to shrug off a knockdown and survive being rolled, qualities that would be very desirable in a small boat intended for challenging environments. Often, we hear of ocean going yachts, abandoned by their crews in a storm, being recovered more or less intact. Its the bits that stick out that are vulnerable.  Mast, rudder and centreboard principally, just the things that Frank Dye would get out of harms way when his Wayfarer was caught in a gale. ( Just think how much more comfortable Frank would have been if he could retire behind a nice Lewmar hatch, AIS transponder, VHF and i-Phone at the ready,  instead of crouching under a leaky  tarp hoping for the best!)
Below is a photo of the worst gale that Four Sisters and I have survived at sea together.  SSW Force 8 to 9, in the Channel  off  Dunkirk.  Even Supertankers  were taking it green over the bows and some had anchored to ride it out.  We were, of course, both on a Norfolk Lines ferry at the time... the evening meal aboard was particularly pleasant.....(Pity the poor sailors on a night like this!)

Julian, Tony,
there is a misconception.
The NACA profiled bilge keels to replace the centreboard would be there solely for sailing as lateral resistance / hydrodynamic uplift. They would be unballasted. Unballasted bilge keels work well, especially in connection with a fast hull.
The ballast required, I would use a hollow central keel structure with a weighted sole (lead or gold).
The keel structure itself should be hollow, permanently filled with water, through permanently open small diameter in- and outlets.

A full blown waterballast system like on the BayRaider would take too much cabin height in a small boat. Besides, it would also cost a good bit more. So why put it in if this cabin sailer could be self righting already with the cheaper central bílge keel structure.

Hope this makes it clearer.

Hi, Claus.
With Pb (as rolls of lead flashing) at €6.30 per Kilo and Au at €25.00 per gram I know which I would use! Mind you, H2O for water ballast is still free – unless you use something like Evian, which in 500ml bottles cost more than milk and nearly as much as Best British Bitter Beer or Real Ale. (Which,for the benefit of any Americans reading this, is NOT drunk warm.... and  while on a subject dear to my heart, please do not confuse it with English Lager –  which unlike REAL lager, made only on the continent of Europe I believe - is only fit for using as ballast! )

To get back to the point...
Ive tried to reduce my level of ignorance about NACA profiles and discovered this
... http://www.boat-links.com/foilfaq.html   which isn’t particularly glowing about the advantages of a foil section over a flat plate, indeed, it seems to contradict itself in parts. Have I missed something – again?

Sorry, Claus. I forgot to ask ..... What effect, if any, do you think such a keel arrangement as you suggest would have on ease of launch and recovery.

Ive seen strong men reduced to quivering wrecks trying to recover a bilge keeler, whereas even my granddaughter can recover Four Sisters single handed.
In the photo below she has help, its true, as it was a bit windy.....and before you ask, it was yours truly who backed the trailer in unnecessarily deep.

Hi Tony,
I take it you are not convinced.
But please be welcome to make a better proposal which adresses the two concerns Matt had in his contribution #83 (on page 5): >I have actually done some initial sketch work on a \\\"Crawl in and die\\\" cabin for a BR20 but you do hit some problems. The first is the centreboard, which is right in the way. One could put up with this, but it also restricts comfortable seating (with legs outstretched) unless you sit facing aft. Second to get comfortable seating you end up with a cabin that looks too high to my eye.<

So the challenge is: How to use a BR hull, to replace the centreboard, and get to a cabin with sitting headroom but without a too high cabin roof. And the two conditions to be met before the bracket are: Boat must be self-righting, and can be built and sold -profitably- for a budget price of GBP 15,000 incl. VAT. Have a go at a solution yourself!

Re the practicalities of a bilge keeler: I have one, my 18 foot Drascombe Driver, and  I do launching and recovery single handed on a shallow beach, and even with the water out. In fact, that bilgekeeler goes up and down the trailer like on tracks, because of the central keel running in the grooves of the trailer keel wheels.

The Driver has crudely profiled bilgekeels, and it only draws 1 foot 6 inches max., but I have -finally- achieved satisfactory upwind performance. How: Through more efficient sailtrim (booms), resulting in higher speed. True, NACA hydrofoils need speed through the water to perform, but with speed they really fly. Flat plates stay always flat, and that from calm to blow.

Bilgekeels work well, they do not necessarily complicate launching and recovery, they are robust and totally foolproof. No hinges, encasings or operating them is needed, and the cockpit is freed of all obstruction. They could be retrofitted to a BR hull without much structural ado, and I think they are the lowest cost alternative solution as well.

Hi, Claus.

OK. You got me. I dont have too many answers to this problem and am a touch light on practical suggestions. (due to limited experience) I have to listen to those who know their stuff and so I have plenty of questions and \\\"what ifs\\\" flying around my head.
Proof of the pudding is in the tasting, as they say, so perhaps Matt should build what you suggest as cheaply as possible  then see what, if anything, has to be added/taken away to make it work?

Sitting head room.... do you think the CBLs cabin looks too high?

One quick comment. Matt said in his post that there could not be sitting headroom.. without facing aft...  What\\\'s wrong with facing aft? I have thought of doing a tweak on Dasiy G to use the forward berth as the main cabin seat. You can stretch your legs right out and there is headroom. Just no back support, which is what I\\\'m tweaking with.

Guys,
what Matt is concerned about is that in the BR open boat the internal waterballast system raises the floor around 8 to 10 inches, so if one took the open BR as it is as substrate in order to get comfortable sitting headroom inside the cabin, the cabin roof would have to go up by that much too, making it -so Matt judges- unsightly.

So I have come up with an idea how he could do away with the internal waterballast without sacrificing self-righting, so then the cockpit floor can be lowered, so then the cabin would be high enough again for comfortable sitting inside without being visually obstructive from the outside.

I admit it\\\'s a longer than usual chain of thoughts, but I had thought I had made it clear what all this is aiming at: That yes, one could get a good and spacious and inexpensive basic cabin sailer out of the existing BR hull mould.
-I think.

Hello everyone

I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'ve been following this thread with interest as I have so far failed miserably to find a quick and easy way to fix an overnight tent to my own BayRaider. For me a permanent cabin would be an uneccessary obstruction most of the time. So for what it is worth here is my idea for a BayCamper. Not original I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'m sure and with no details worked out yet.

The forward sprayhood works a treat. It is quick to put up, spacious and gives good shelter. I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'d like a similar aft sprayhood (the other way round of course) that could be joined to the forward sprayhood with an infill piece. An instant tent and up in a jiffy. The mizzen mast is in the way but the simplest way round this is just to take it out before putting the tent up. Anyone care to work out the fine details? See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5nf-oplNL0 for inspiration.

Going back again to the construction photos on the website,it looks to me as if the \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"sideboard\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"cases on the CBL have a lot more top end lateral support than
the centreboard ditto on the BC.Can anybody please comment on the possible importance,or not,of this?

In Swedish archipelago waters,where I hope to take my new-SB-to-be to places my dear old long-keeler could never reach,impact resistance is a factor..

Also @ Tony,
I would be quite interested to know what the cabin inside of \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Four Sisters\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" looks like,if it´s not too intrusive.(Photo?)

@ Jeff,

The Beneteau 21.7 has this type off arrangement,which I saw last summer.Very
clumsily contrived,but a great idea!

Hi Jeff,
I have been experimenting with a cockpit tent on Daisy G. Juat a piece of an old tarpaulin and a fibreglass tent pole. The pole bends into a semi circle and just sticks into two 10mm diam holes. The holes are currently in two little blocks of wood I have screwed to the coaming. I am planning to drill a couple into the cleat supports at some stage so I can get rid of the little blocks. The front end overlaps the sprayhood. I need to shape the front to fit better. At the moment the whole thing is jsut held together with gaffer tape. I am hopnig to talk my wife into stiching the it in matching canvas once I have got the pattern worked out. The pole breaks down into 2ft lengths so it can all be dismounted and stowed in the cockpit locker or just under the side deck. It takes less than a minute to put up or take down and it is completely out of the way when you don\\\'t want it.

Hi, Johan.
I don’t seem to have a decent photo of the inside of the cabin so Ive sent these shots taken the day I first brought Four Sisters back from Wales, with my granddaughter included to give an idea of the scale. The boat doesn’t look so clean anymore – and my granddaughter has altered even more! Both are still beautiful and, I think, have matured rather than aged.
I, on the other hand....well... Enough said....

This is probably the neatest set up I have ever seen, in this case on a Caledonia Yawl.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/DaleDavenportBoat.jpg

Hi, Brian.
Ye, it looks very smart .. but also it looks as if it took an age to organise and set up.
If you are going to all that trouble why not pitch a tent on shore?  Jeff\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s twin spray hood idea, on the other hand, would only take a few minutes to set up.
I still prefer a cabin, though - however small - if it kept as a  no go area for wet oilskins, boots and, yes, even cooking stoves. Gas flames in a confined space produce a deal of water vapour which will condense on any cool surface, run down the  inside of the hull and soak your sleeping bag. I always cook on the side decks and only retreat under the spray hood if it is actually raining. I cook, eat and socialise in the cockpit...then I crawl-in -and-die. (...a phrase which I should have made copyright when I first used it.) I had enough of trying to sleep in damp, badly ventilated bivvy bags in my youth, where the condensation from just your own breath was enough to wet you through. I sleep much better in the cabin - suitably insulated by 10mm closed cell foam - than I ever did in even my all-time favorite tent. In an out-and-out Raid boat I think its important that the crew get a guaranteed respite from the elements - especially so for single handers.

Tony,
I agree 100%. A hard cabin is tougher and warmer. Important points where we sail here around Europe.
Besides, you cannot have improved AVS (Angle of vanishing stability) from a sprayhood based textile structure.