Swallow Boats Forum

This being Swallowboats, I am about to commit heresy and expect to be excommunicated. I hope there isn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t an Inquisition first (\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"keelhaul him for his sins\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\")

Have any Raid -sailors (I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'m not one, sadly - my boat is too small) considered junk rig for raiding?
Having, initially by chance but with increasing interest thereafter, done some book study on the subject, I suggest that they should at least have a look. Starting with an extra 10% sail area, as effective upwind as gaff-rig and more efficient off the wind, with easy gybing: and (this seems to me the big bonus) with instant hassle-free reefing on the water, almost by the gust apparently and right down to storm rig.

I recommend  Hasler and McCleod \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'Practical Junk Rig\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\', and van Loan \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'The Chinese Sailing Rig\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'.

Michael Rogers

I read in James Wharram\\\'s book, Two Girls, Two Catamarans, that he tried junk rig initially, but found that it really is not satisfactory on a fast boat. I cannot remember the reasons, but he found that all the benefits of the rig are lost when you want to go significantly fast, which is why it is not used on catamarans. Raid boats might not go fast enough to experience the problems, but I think they do fairly tool along.

Michael,
there was a junk-rigged boat in Sail Caledonia 2006 or 7. It did not perform well. Pointing was a big problem.

Michael,
im not an expert, but i think the main issue on our sort of boat is poor pointing ability in light winds. In stronger winds the battens will flex enough to generate a good aerofoil shape and it works better, but there is still all those strings needed to control the leech which also puts me off.
Feel free to prove  me wrong though, and there must be many hours of fun to be had trying it!
Matt

Thanks for interesting comments.

Julian, the essential requirement for junk rig is apparently an unstayed mast which cannot rotate. This is usually achieved by stepping the mast unrotatably on the keel, and supporting it at deck level, with adequate \\\'bury\\\' between the two. Obviously on a catamaran this wouldn\\\'t be easy! I don\\\'t think speed has anything to do with it. I\\\'m told that a good junk rig off the wind can be impressively quick.

Claus, the professional junk rig designers say that limitations going to windward are nearly always in the hull, not the rig (provided the latter is properly designed). They claim junk rig points at least as high as gaff, and as high as many bermudan boats.

Matt, your comments are fair enough. I have been fascinated to hear about modern research into batten design, to get a proper aerofoil shape. There does seem to be a lot of string involved although, because the main advantage claimed is ease of handling, this can presumably be made collectively to behave itself. It\\\'s also a fair point that junk rig out East has been used and developed for about 2000 years, mainly in a no-nonsense-earning-a-living context, so it must have some things going for it.

If I continue to scratch this new itch, I\\\'ll keep folks posted.

Michael

If you want to see how the Chinese do it, have a look at this web site. The Graceful Princess was built in Taiwan, sailed from there to the USA, then back to Taiwan only to be run down by a tanker one day from home! Just seemed unfair (Don\\\'t worry about the Chinese, just looke at teh pictures!)

http://www.chinesevoyage.com/html/front/bin/ptlist.phtml?Category=150249

Hi, Michael.

I\\\'m convinced that,with modern materials and techniques - and with enough research - the sampan could make a really efficient and seaworthy small cruising boat.
Well, why not? They have been efficient and seaworthy trading vessels for thousands of years, or so it seems!
Sticking a fully battened lug sail - the so-called junk rig - on to a hull designed to  take a less adaptable sail might not work too well, though. Sampan hulls are highly evolved bits of kit. They may look like a bundle of fire wood topped by a sail made from old bamboo beach mats but they are working boats, made on the cheap, not super-yachts.

Take a look at this  (http://friend.ly.net/users/dadadata/junk/sampan.html) for details of rigging the mainsheet etc.
If a windsurfer sail designer took a look at this do you think the result would be a bomb proof cruising sail? 

Below are a couple of drawings of junk rigged Bayraiders I made just to annoy Matt!

Cheers!
Tony

Tony
I like it! The aft cabin promises many very lazy days and nights of sailing. Tiller on the bedhead, outboard controls at the side of the bunk what more could you ask for?
PS. I am looking at the feasability of fitting an aft cabin to \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Iona\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" our Storm 15
Terry Cross

Hi, Terry.

Im glad SOMEONE takes my ideas seriously........
Hmm...Aft cabin on a Storm 15....Why not make it a two decker. The hired hand can sleep with the engine in the orlop while you have a stern gallery off the Great Cabin. Guaranteed to lay head to wind, too!
Cheers!
Tony

PS Actually, you COULD use an electric outboard glued to the rudder and push-me-pull-you steering amidships.....I wonder that no one has done it before.....

Have fun, you scoffers! One of the facts I have discovered about junk rig is that it tends not to be taken seriously except by those (relatively few) people who take it seriously. Since I started this topic, I have been junk-rig sailing with people who know (and do) what they are talking about, and it is absolutely fascinating. One type of boat which responds particularly well to the application of up-to-date  junk rig practice is shallow draft/light displacement. This has gone beyond an itch and has become a project, now in quite an advanced stage of planning. I hope to have quite a lot to show for it next season, eg at the next Swallowboats Teifi Rally. I will say no more, but expect to have the last laugh.

PS I have NOT lost my sense of humour!

This junk rig, I think its a solution looking for a problem.
I fail to see any problem with the simple standard Gunter ketch rig of the Raiders. The Gunter ketch rig performs superbly, and reefs easily. Sailing and tacking up briskly under jib and mizzen alone is a priceless asset. A stayed main mast in a tabernacle on the foredeck allows for open sleeping room underneath the foredeck. The unstayed  main mast in a spear type socket of a junk rig would need to be longer, heavier in the material, and would be far less comfortable to step and unstep, and to transport while trailering.
Besides, standard unbattened sails are simpler, cheaper and easier to handle and store away than battened junk sails.
And who says that -on the upside- the junk rig would perform at least as good as the Gunter rig or even better?

I\\\'ve never used junk rig so can\\\'t speak from any experience. I gather that its reall beauty is not its efficiency or speed, but its ease of use. Mile of string to set up, but once it is done, you can hoist the sail up above your head and leave it to get on with things on its own. Even if it rips it works.
I don\\\'t think it is true that it has to have an unstayed mast. It just allows you to have one if you want. Cetainly large junks oftne seemd to have shrouds much like squre riggers.
What I am intigued by is the idea of the rear cabin. It seems wrong when you say it, but when you look at it it seems to realy have quite a lot going for it. The main problems are steering and trying to devise a layout that looks natural. I think you really want quite a large cabin with a poop deck on top. Steer from there in the open and from inside in the cold. Just use the open cockpit as a place to get the crew wet...

Julian,
in the thread \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'What Boat Next\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' in December 2007 Gerald Turner had come up with the idea of a stern main cabin. I was intrigued and campaigned fervently for it in private, to no avail.
One of these years an audacious designer will come up with a stern cabin, I think the market is now getting ready for it. It has so much going for it.

Further to the above mention of a stern cabin.:
I had originally even thought about a REMOVABLE stern cabin.

The scenario:
My own time requirements are 90% for an open boat, 10% for a boat with a cabin. To have a permanent cabin boat would make me resent it most of the time.

My only reason to have a cabin -temporarily- would be for coast-hopping one year between the Frisian Islands and down to Brittany.

Such weeks-long trips could not very well be done with sprayhood, cockpit tent and air mattress. Reason: Too little dry storage, too much fuss to rig up and down repeatedly.

So, a removable cabin it has to be. I think a temporary cabin is an innovative concept. I can not buy any boat which has that.

To have a temporary cabin on the foredeck of my existing SR is not possible, and I am doubtful one could be added to a standard BR. The existing foredecks are in the way.

The main opposing technical reason for a temporary forward cabin is and remains to be the main mast system including mast support, shrouds, and working the mast in general.

With the cabin having to be temporary, no major modification to the main mast system would be feasible resp. economic.

Then, a forward cabin would have to be sturdy enough to have people crossing over its roof for anchoring. That means a heavier  weight design which is in opposition to the cabin having to be removable easily and quickly.
   
Very different situation for a temporary stern cabin. The mizzen mast can be pulled out and re-stepped in a jiffy.

The stern area is wide enough for two berths right onto the transom edge. So, a temporary stern cabin can be more compact in size and lighter by design as there would not have to be sturdy rooftop support.

On SR, the rudder and tiller mechanism can remain to be unaltered when the boat is being sailed with the temporary cabin on.

And, to answer your and anybodys aesthetical concerns against a stern cabin on SR, one can always say:\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" Yes, but this is only a TEMPORARY hardtop, put on solely for the purpose of allowing me this long trip, otherwise this hardtop can be taken off again in two minutes and put into the garage, and then this is a beautiful classic open boat again.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"

THAT is the point: Ugly, yes, but only temporarily, while this journey lasts. (Drascombe Coasters are ugly for good.)

An open Dayboat with the option to have on it a long trip hardtop cabin from time to time, as required, where else is such a boat on the market? - I believe that is a great eyecatcher and USP.

I still think it is.

Further to the above, I just had this idea:

If you follow the idea so far for a removable hardtop as temporary stern cabin roof, why not also design this hardtop so ingeniously that when taken off it can double up and be used as TEMPORARY TENDER?

How about...

Make the hull about 2m longer, with the extra length hinged, so when anchored, or in a pricey marina, the rear 2m is hinged forward over the top of the main hull to form a cozy roof to a temporary cabin? Rigging the mizzen and rudder might be a bit of a challenge, not to mention the outboard.

I had not been trying to be funny.

There are bathtubs available with a sealed door for floor level entry.

A removable hardtop roof could be upturned, and with a seal and a lid over the entrance opening would form an open hull that would float. If done well, this could be a basic rigid tender to row ashore if need be.

Transporting a tender with a small boat on the open sea and over large distances is always a problem. If you have an inflatable tender, you know that that is a pain on a small boat.

I remember a boatbuilder in France, Francois Lelievre, who had the idea to have a roof which if turned upside down would fit inside and become part of the open cockpit. On his Pirmin dinghy.

Think about it, it may sound ludicrous to you, but it is not.

Hi Claus,

I wasn\\\'t thinking it was funny, it is interesting. Phil Bolger designed a folding schooner, which folded in half for ease of transport. I think there could be potential to develop that idea as a way of shortening a boat for marinas and providing non-sailing accommodation. I think one of the usual problems is the increase in weight caused by the fastenings and waterproofing needed.

Hi Julian,
I found photos of the Pirmil 5.5, the boat with the removable cabin rooftop that can be turned around to disappear into the open cockpit at: http://www.nauticaltrek.com/voiliers/databoat/galerie_d_image.html?no_cache=1&rep=5511&from_pid=5511 .
So there.

If you look at that cabin rooftop, there is little fantasy required to realise that it could be fitted with a watertight sealed lid and be rowed ashore too.

I am thankful you have started a separate thread on rear cabins; I wish we could transfer the more recent contributions from here to there. I am sorry to have deviated this thread away from Junk sails, I was carried away by my own spontaneity.

The French do produce some extraordinary boats! I was looking at a 16ft epoxy ply little cruiser the other day, with perspex domes that you stick your head up into to survey the sea. Can\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t find the link at the moment.

I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'ll add some ideas to the rear cabin thread when I get time. I do quite fancy the idea of lounging on the poop deck, keeping an eye on the crew down in the cockpit below. I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'m not sure how Matt would react if I asked him if he could just slide Daisy G\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s cabin a couple of meters backwards...

Now, a sliding cabin, there\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s a thought

PS Found the link to the curious French boat, well worth a look:
http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/works-and-creations/souriceau-4-75m-micro-cruiser/

There seem to be two themes going on here, but as far as funny little bubbles to look out of and central steering positions, stern cabins etc are concerned, I refer folk again to Hasler and McCleod\\\'s \\\'Practical Junk Rig\\\". It\\\'s all been done, to practical effect not just to be quirky, 20 - 30 years ago.

As promised (actually, as I promised myself), I\\\'m not going to say any more about my own junk rig project (actions speak louder than words etc). Herewith some brief remarks about some of the comments made above.

Problems and Solutions. Claus is clearly very happy with, and defensive of, gunter ketch rig, and I would only be provocative if I suggested that there just might be a rig out there which is even handier and performs even better! I definitely have problems with the rig of my Storm Petrel (a lovely, fast, skittery and tender little thing), principally that reefing effectively means running for shore, which is inefficient, inconvenient, frustrating and potentially not even feasible. (I tried roller furling of the jib as first reef: for various reasons I was not happy with it.) That is MY major problem, which affects most of my sailing activities - I like to STAY OUT, even in a blow. I believe I have found an elegant, flexible and seamanlike solution.

All that string. A fair amount, and it needs setting up and tuning. However, this tweaking is \\\'permanent\\\', and once done rigging the boat etc is an absolute doddle.

Stayed/unstayed masts. True junk rig, including its \\\'Western\\\' development over the last 50 years, has an unstayed mast as basic. I am no engineer or whatever, but I understand it to be an established fact that the forces acting on the mast, and through the mast on the hull, are entirely different in the two instances, to an extent which can quite profoundly affect handling and sailing qualities.

Performance. In a recent issue of the Junk Rig Association Newsletter (actually a very elegant and beautifully illustrated little magazine) there is a picture of a yacht called Poppy, rigged with the latest kind of junk sail (sail panels between the battens individually cambered), absolutely storming through a big fleet of yachts, on the south (open) side of the Isle of Wight, in what looks like a force 5 - 6, during the 2008 Round the Island Race. She was apparently delayed off the start for non-sailing reasons, overtook the other boats by the score, and was one of the first round the Needles and into the Solent. Junk rig performance off the wind is recognised to be good (only bettered by boats with spinnakers). Poppy\\\'s upwind performance is reportedly startling.

Ease of handling. It may be because I am not managing to get any younger that the legendary ease of handling of junk rig is so attractive. Francis Chichester won the first solo transatlantic race, exhausting himself and losing lots of weight in the process. Blondie Hasler came second in junk-rigged Jester, having apparently spent much of the voyage cooking meals which resulted in him gaining weight, while the boat sailed herself. A junk rigged schooner called Galway Blazer took part in a Round Britain Race during which the weather was sometimes severe. It was remarked upon that, at the end of each leg, the only crew not utterly exhausted was that of (yes, you\\\'ve guessed it) Galway Blazer (which has also circumnavigated, including Cape Horn). At the end of the 2008 Isle of Wight race mentioned above, the crew of Poppy was about the only one not on its collective beam ends with tiredness. Sailing, allegedly like Taxes (though that\\\'s a lie), doesn\\\'t have to be taxing to be enjoyable.

I do not know anything first hand about junk rig, but there is a well known Drascombe Scaffie which has been successfully converted to junk. This link is about what the owner did:
http://www.drascombe-association.org.uk/articles/junkrig.html

Michael,
sorry if I came across all negative about the junk rig, but that applies only to what you had asked for originally: Junk Rigs (suitable) for Raiding?

For other boats and applications they may be absolutely perfect.

And if you presently have to run for shore with your Storm Petrel just to put a reef in, then of course the junk rig may bring a big improvement for you.

But the Swallowboats Raiders do not have to be reefed ashore, they can do that in the open, and single-handed. In severe weather.

Points all taken, Claus, in the friendliest of spirits. No, you weren\\\'t all negative at all, and aren\\\'t we having a stimulating discussion?!

Thanks for the fascinating link, Julian.

Seemed to remember a Junk rigged sampan in WaterCraft magazine some time ago. Had a ferret about and,sure enough..W15 May/June 1999, page 74.
(and, no, I don\\\'t have the full set lined up in Morocco leather binders!)
This actually shows a San Fransico Pelican 18 with a fully battened main - but the article mentions a junk rigged Yangtze 18 with a fore cabin and, wait for it, a Great Cabin aft! Neither the Pelican website nor the Wooden Boats forum have a picture of an existing boat but they do have this rather scary drawing.

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71730

See also the French site;

http://jonquedeplaisance.net/fr/plans.html

and also

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/metal-boat-building/junk-rig-sails-9490.html

Hi Claus,

Here is a (rather beautiful) day boat with a lid - not sure I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'d call it a cabin, and it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s not a production version either!

http://www.luckhardt.com/edboat4sale.html

I spent a while with bits of ply messing around to try and work out a cabin for my Drascombe Lugger but couldn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t get it to work.

Rich M.

Hello Rich,
how are you? Happy New Year!

That is an interesting and certainly very pretty boat. It looks to me like that lid is -or has been designed to be- either removable or a pop-up. Which would be possible with that Cat rig mast standing so well forward that it does not interfere with the lid top. But it looks like very frugal space under that lid.

But no chance to do something similar with Luggers, the closed bow section is always in the way.
The BayRaider is actually quite good for overnighting with the sprayhood and an overall cover.
But alas, small boats and overnighting is probably an eternal conflict never to be happily resolved.
Will you come to the Solent Raid?
C.

Hey Claus,

The cat rig looks like a sensible rig for a small cabin boat, avoiding the need for a mast support post right in the middle of the accomodation, eh? But it has disadvantages, too.

I\\\'m very very tempted by the Solent Raid. I was brought up down there and used to sail a very leaky National 12 from Keyhaven. My brother and I spent more time sanding and varnishing that boat than we ever did sailing it...

I have PMed you.