Swallow Boats Forum

It\\\'s Saterday and i should be on the water not polishing my prized \\\"Joybells\\\" but i\\\'m still in that stage of pride of my boat and the wind is non existent anyway. Something caught my eye whilst checking the hull and at first i thought it was a garden slug which i took exception to being on my hull so i bent down to persuade it to move on as to speak, well it was a slug but not of the slimy type it was the end of the centreboard pivot pin sticking out of it\\\'s housing by a couple of inches. On inspection the pivot pin normally sits under the two stainless hull rails which provide the hinges, this one had completely come out of one of the rails and was only hinging on one rail. The only damage i can see is where the end of the pin has worn into the hull due to the pin being allowed to drop on the end not supported and as such rub into the hull on the opposite end. The worst scenario i guess would be loss of the centreboard if this had gone any further.

I will take this up with Matt to see if what has gone wrong or if there is a design issue with the pin securing, as far as i can see the pin is held in place onto the centrebaord with a stainless rail and some \\\"black sealent\\\" the pin must have slid through this to end up potruding on one side and unhinged on one side. perhaps it needs to be held in place on the centre board with a sunken allen headed slug (sorry i can\\\'t think of another term for it)

I thought i would mention here asap as it could be a safety/cost issue, has anyone else observed this.

To resolve for now i have \\\"jacked up\\\" the centre board so the pin aligns with stainless rail and persuaded it to go back where it should be with the help of a hammer and wood beam.

Peter,
interesting problem. Never had it - yet. Curious about what may have caused it, and how the pivot pin can be secured in place for good.

Peter,
you did not mention which BR that is, wood or plastic?

And I have one observation of my own concerning a centreboard problem on my GRE BR: The forward screws of the wooden centreboard case board have come  loose and keep on coming loose.  What is causing this is that I trailer with the centreboard uphauled. Now when there are bumps and potholes in the road -this is Ireland- the centreboard inertia makes it swing down a bit and prize up the forward part of the wooden centreboard top board.
The forces on the centreboard hinging system -i.e. pivot pin below and forward arm above- must be very big during trailering. Which may be the connection between Peters problem above and mine here, forces under certain adverse conditions being too big for current holding mechanism design.

Claus

Thanks for early response, to confirm this is a GRP boat, i have checked the case screws and all needed one quarter turn to tighten. I also trailer my boat some 100 miles round trip each time i sail and have done this several times since owning the boat so you may be onto something with the stress on the pivot design.I\\\'m not sure whether this pin movement has been gradual or as a result of the last sail a few days ago, also when i jacked up the centreplate so the pin was above the rail to allow re-insertion the pin took some persuading to get it to move back into position again so how did it move in the first place beats me.

Whilst your on i read somewhere you use a hand bilge pump to empty the ballast tanks do you have any description on the forum of how you created the entry point into the tanks or do you simply open the waterproof hatch and drop the strum box into it.

Thanks
Peter

Peter,
re the pumping out of the ballast tank in my plastic BR \\\'Tipsy\\\', I have now three bungs inserted into the aft facing wall of the tank (facing into the sump), the one in the middle has an opening of 1\\\", the two side ones have an opening of 1/2\\\". The two side ones are set as far out as ever possible, on starboard and port, and all are as low down in the wall as ever possible.

I have two manual bailing pumps fitted onto the outboarder bracket, on either side of the engine. Their intake hoses are laid crosswise i.e. the portside pump sucks the starboard side of the sump. Photo in the thread http://www.swallowboats.co.uk/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,28/expv,0/topic,198.60 .

The sump itself has two \\\'Mini\\\' selfbailers for outside mounting, starboard and port.

The tank has a standing vent.

Thus, when I open the three bungs, the tanks gravity drains into the sump. From there, I either manually pump the water, or, when the speed suffices,the water is sucked out by the selfbailers. I no longer use the selfbailers inside the tank.

In my other BR \\\'Llafurio\\\' I have an electric bilge pump integrated into the sucking intake of one pump, thus I can empty the sump just by clicking a switch.

But let\\\'s not forget over this the pivot thing which this thread is all about.

Regards,
Claus

The pivot point is always a potential probem area on a centreboard boat. The original problem posted here of a pivot sliding out is quite concerning and I would be interested in hearing the outcome. The last time I saw mine (last April) it seemed normal, so I hope it still is.

I have had concerns about the board when trailering, but I don\\\'t think the centreboard trunk and cap itself will be under much stress. When on the trailer, the board is supported entirely by the pivot rod and the board uphaul rope. All of the stresses will be in the pivot, the rope and the various cleats and rollers the rope goes round. My concern is that the rope might break whilst towing, allowing the board to drop onto the trailer or possibly even onto the road. Bump over a few potholes like that and the board will soon be wrecked.

I would suspect that the loosening screws are more due to general shaking of the hull than stress from the raised board.

I have spoken to Matt and he would like to see some photographs of the pin and surrounding area which i will do asap. Matt explained the following, the pin is held in place by the stainless strap which is screwed to the centreplate, Sikaflex is used to bond the pin to the stainless strap. The hull should have a small tab moulded into it which the prevents the pin from lateral movement apparently. Matt has had no other similar issues to what i have reported on my Bayraider. I will update this thread when Matt has reported back and the official fix he wishes to apply.

Peter,
is there any new information concerning this issue available by now?
C.

Claus, Peter, Julian et al.
The centreboard pin on a GRP BR should be secured by a stainless strip each side (also forming the keel protection) and the shape of the GRP hull moulding, which stops it slipping out sideways.
Somehow on Peters BR the hull moulding has been chipped or damaged locally allowing the pin to escape. For his boat we have sent him some strips of epoxy coated mahog and some adhesive to glue up against either side and stop the pin ever escaping sideways.
Not in any way wanting to diminish this potential problem, but in our boats the centreboard provides very little stability. They are only slightly weighted in order to sink. Losing the CB out the bottom of the boat would be a large and undesirable problem (though the Uphaul would restrain it) but it would not cause a capsize as it would if the ballast keel on a yacht fell off.
We have not come across this problem before but we would ask owners to keep an eye on this area, just in case. We will also be writing to them all to highlight this issue.
Best wishes,
Matt

Claus

The parts arrived this week and are as Matt described, before fitting i thoroughly cleaned and abrased the small area where the strips are to be attached and glued the strips in place. As \\\"i went to the doctor\\\" here i did \\\"take the medicine\\\" he prescribed and hopefully the solution will work and stay working. I do have some concerns though, the moulded lip in the hull which Matt describes as being in some way a retaining lip for the pin was damaged but in my opinion only by the lateral shift of the pin so not a potential cause but effect of the pin moving. I\\\'m not sure if the solution would be practicable if the boat was kept in the water for long periods of time or if i was in the habit of \\\"beaching\\\" the boat which may cause abrasion against the pieces of wood. I would much preffered that the pin was drilled, tapped and pinned into the stainless band, any thoughts.

Somehow loosing the centreboard function during a sail in a GRP BR would have very severe consequences as the boat -though it would not capsize- would immediately loose all windward capability and would have to go to lee whatever there lies.
Even emergency motoring in that situation (without centreboard) may not help prevent leeshore trouble. Anybody here tried to motor a BR into a headwind without any centreboard help? -The only way possible is to go stern-first with the engine in reverse, while the waves pound the transom savagely. That\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s no picnic, and the outcome is open.

It really bothers me that the pivot pin on Peters boat has lost its hold and firm seat. At first glance the pivot pin securing on my BR looks strong enough. But still I can imagine that if the bonding mass between hull gelcoat and stainless steel band ever lost hold, either on the plastic or the s/s, the little screws holding the keel bands to the hull may on their own not have enough grip in the plastic to keep the keelband(s) so tight to the hull that the pin cannot flip out from its molded socket. I would be happier if the screws holding the keelstrips to the hull fore and aft of where they hold the pin were replaced by through-bolts with good size washers inside the tank. Probably tricky to get at the nuts in there, but maybe Matt finds a solution to that problem as well, he has found so many others already.

Not tricky at all. I looked in there today. The pivot pin indentation is right underneath the forward ballast tank hatches. Childs play to access bolts, washers and nuts there.
C.

Done. Replaced the four little screws holding the two keelbands nearest to the pivoting pin with M5 bolts and proper washers and self-locking nuts. Took less than 20 minutes.
The keel area where the screws are is about 2 mms thick so very little grip for the original screws there. One of the screws removed was loose anyway from overtightening.
The keelbands are held mostly by the black bonding stuff, which bonding I would not trust forever. With the strong vertical downward force on the keelbands from the pivoting pin during trailering and the limited grip the original screws haver there, I anticipate there will be some more trouble in this area in the future, if not fixed.

C.

Claus

I understand what you have done and can see the logic, i.e the bands will grip the pin harder and will not move away if the original screws came lose. What i\\\'m confused about is the hinge part of the pin i.e where should it be allowed to rotate. On my boat i have the black sealent between the pin and the stainless band screwed to the centreboard and as such the pin rotates under the stainless bands which you have now bolted suggesting that they will not rotate possibly freely now. Matt supplied \\\"end stop pieces of wood\\\" to secure to the hull to stop sideways movement of the pin, this suggests that the pin need\\\'s to move freely under the stainless bands you have bolted tightly to try and stop the sideways movement. I was thinking that the band screwed to the centreboard should be drilled, the pin should be drilled and tapped and a hex sunken pin should be screwed in to mechanicall fix the pin to the band, it will then rotate under the two stainless bands you have bolted and the pin would be impossible to move sideways again.

Peter,
the pin must be fixed on the keelbands side, and be free to rotate on the centreboard side. As you will understand when you will have to remove the centreboard for the first time.
I am at a loss why they have done it the other way around on your boat, maybe Matt can explain. Probably they had someone new to the business at it.

What I was trying to convey also is that you must watch your keelbands. They are the part that must not come loose, ever. I am critical how the keelband is attached by the yard at present. I think they should bolt it on new boats in the area of the pivoting pin.

These are still relatively early days for the BayRaider. The sooner we people in the practice pinpoint the -few- remaining teething issues, the better for the yard in the longer run. The plastic BR will be an even better boat with a better pivoting pin fastening than what they do to secure it thus far.

Claus

Matt needs to comment on this as we can go no further, i have attached one of the pictures i took and sent to Matt, this shows black Silkaflex on the pin on the centreboard band and none on the outer bands. It also shows the wear into the hull from the dislodged pin.

Peter and all,
the above photo and description has solved the riddle how your pivot pin got dislodged and the gelcoat chipped:

The centreboard has lateral play, the pivoting pin has none. Through wrongly fastening the pivoting pin to the centreboard, the centreboard took the pin laterally out with it, until one side of the pin left its seat from under the keelband, and jammed there, while the other side of the pin cocked up and chipped the plastic.

So this was caused by that assembly error at the yard to let the pin rotate in the keel seat instead of in its centreboard seat.
Your proposal to secure the pin to the centreboard with a sunken hex would have done the exact same BTW.
C.

P.S.
And there is one other not-so-nice detail to be seen on your photo: They still first carve out a recessed seat area for an outside-hull flange selfbailer, and then mount an inside-hull flange bailer there instead. Silly.

Thanks for all your feedback.
The pin on Peters boat has not been deliberately glued to the centreboard. The sikaflex is there as a result of over enthusiastic application when bedding the screws home on the board itself.
Claus is correct that the pin should be stationary in the boat, ie not rotating, and the board should swivel on this. Fitting a pair of M5 bolts each side of the keelband is a great idea and we will be sorting this out on all future boats, as well as recomending to owners.

Peter, you sound unhappy about the fix that I have sent you - I will email you today to discuss other possibilities for your particular boat.

On another note Claus, the recess for the bailers was originally in place to enable the moulders to see easily where the bailers have to fit. It was a difficult problem to eliminate, but we sorted it some time ago. All boats since have flush finishes for their bailers. Peters boat is a 2009 ex demo model.

Through the knowledge of members and discussion on this very usefull forum as  Claus has stated the riddle has now unfolded. When i originally discussed this matter with Matt he asked if i could see the black Silkaflex under the band and i replied yes. My assumption was the pin was fixed to the centreboard and the centreboard strip and it was supposed to swivel under the keelband strips. I have checked this morning and the pins will quite freely move in and out of the keelband strips within the constraints of the slot width of the centreboard. When i knocked the pin back into position i did need to tap quite hard so the centreboard friction on the pin must be considerable as no friction is being applied from the keelband strips so is unlikely to swivel there if i fix the pins under the keelband strips without investigation. So if the centreboard pin is not Silkafexed to the centreboard strip and centreboard the friction must be coming from band against pin against centreboard.

Matt has written to me and has taken full ownership of the problem and between us we will i\\\'m sure correct this one way or another. The good news is this is unlikely to be a wider issue for other boats so no immediate concerns and that a small engineering change by way of the bolt fixing against screws on the 4 keelband positions will futher guard against pin lateral movement.

To summarise, yes i had a problem, Swallow Boats listened and promised to help, due to practical distance problems the boat was not taken to the yard for inspection so relied on discussion and pictures to identify the issue, my assumption on the mechanics was incorrect and the forum discussion brought this to the surface. Additional thought to the pin fixing has resulted in an improved arrangement to be incorporated in new boats.

Thanks to Swallow Boats and forum members for all your help. :)