Swallow Boats Members Forum

Hello,
It occurred to me that this forum would be a good place to start a discussion about what boat we should be developing next.

Our popular 20ft BayRaider is still consuming huge amounts of my time as we refine the production and satisfy orders, but I am considering a year or two from now.

At the moment we are thinking along the lines of a range of Raider boats, from the SeaRaider at one end to perhaps a PondRaider at the other (Better name needed please!).

We have very approximate plans for a 17.5-18ft version, provisionally named LochRaider, and a 15-16ft version, as suggested by Brian Pearson in a different thread on this forum, would also be potentially very popular.

What about a cabin boat version?
What should be the key requirements for any of these boats?
What do you consider as the competition?
What would make you buy one!?
Is there another type of boat that we should be considering as we look to the future?
All thoughts/comments/dreams welcome...

Best wishes,
Matt Newland

Interesting question.

I think a cruiser (cabin) version of the BayRaider would be nice.

I know you already have the 19\\\" Cardigan Bay Lugger, which is a very nice cabin boat. But this water ballast system that you have in the open BayRaider, I think that would be an extremely attractive feature for a cabin coastal sailer too, because of the additional safety it provides. No other small cabin trailer sailer currently on the market has that extra safety.

Would I want one for myself? Not sure, I think I prefer the all-open dayboats.

But since you asked...

Sailor

Sailor:
I very much agree with the proposal of a cabin sailer. But, wouldn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t the 22\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' SeaRaider be a better substrate? - The competition, Drascombe Coaster and the new Drifter, are both 22 feet boats.

Claus

15 -16 ft version for me. A one man raid boat which has versatile uses due to the water ballast. Should be possible to have good performance unballasted and good safety margins with ballast.

1) Spec for singlehanded sailing, with room for friend/grand-child/nervous wife. Because it can be sailed single-handedly it will be safe with non-experienced crew on-board.

2) Fits garage to build and store

2) In epoxy ply will be light enough to move alone.

3) I will obtain a dinghy space at my sailing club in about two years time and maximum size is 16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\', so timing perfect for me. Do not want to leave a boat on a mooring - too much hassle.

4) There seem to be many people who sail who have partners who are not keen. The Bayraider is for families who all sail together, this boat is for all the others.

5) 15/16 ft can be supplied as a kit as per Storm 17 and at an affordable price.

I would be very interested in purchasing in kit form a small cabin cruiser which could be based upon the Bay Raider or Sea Raider. The water ballast and the addition of twin keels could give plenty of accomodation space with good stability.

I presently own a Drascombe Lugger which has the advantage of being easy to handle on and off a trailer but I feel the sailing performance could be improved.

I would see this boat as a direct competitor to the Coaster. The Drifter 22 is a very nice boat but is probably too large and heavy to be taken off and on a trailer too many times. A Coaster is my next choice of boat but I am always looking for something better.

Ian

A new Swallowboats cruiser? 
How about a Bayraider  or  Searaider  with a swing keel?
· The Searaider’s ability to fill and empty the300kg of water ballast on the move using self bailers is a great idea, making her easily tuned for maximum performance or maximum stability - and you don’t have to tow the ballast around on a trailer.
· The downside is that the tanks take up a lot of space needed for headroom and storage lockers. 
· Lead ballast at keel level takes up much less room but increases handling difficulties on shore.  (I can just about cope with the 92kg of lead on the Cardigan Bay Lugger - removing it for easy trailing makes you quite warm after a cold sail!- but I wouldn’t fancy doing the same with 300kg on a raid boat. If you live in a mining area that’s like shifting 12 bags of coal, enough to last the winter!)
· Moving the ballast further below the waterline gives it a greater righting moment per kg. (but all that leverage needs strong construction. Not a problem for Swallow boats.) In effect, you get the same stability for less mass. 

Here’s an example:-
The Mitchell Yachts 15’  Explorer (http://www.mitchellyachts.co.uk/) has a 100lb bulb at 5ft and two 80lb shafts at 2.5ft generating 1,000ftlbs of righting force at 45 degrees of heel.
No offence to Mukti Mitchell, environmentalist and all round good bloke, but his Explorer looks a bit \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'agricultural\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' compared to the Bayraider. Can’t fault the keel, though. The boat works to windward and is almost aggressively self righting.

What do you think, Matt?

Tony

The Cardigan Bay Lugger looks a great little boat for my sort of sailing/trailing. As much of my sailing is single-handed, I would not be looking for a larger boat, and something around 18-19 feet would fit in my 20 foot garage nicely.

In order to maintain easy launching/recovery and beaching, I would not advocate adding permanent ballast. I do think however that the addition of the water ballast system would be a major advantage to the design.

The use of the twin centreboards hidden under the seats, rather than a single central centreboard, seems to be a good way of maximising the space in a small cabin boat. How does the performance of the twin boards compare?

A transom stern, rather than a double-ender, might provide additional stern boyancy for guests in the cockpit, in addition to giving some chance of climbing back in the boat after a swim (deliberate or otherwise).

Peter

I think given the BayRaider concept of being a more modern, \\\"faster, more fun and safer\\\" version of the Drascombe Lugger (the quotes were what Iain Oughtred said when I cold called him to ask what he thought of Swallowboats efforts!), that there is a market to do the same on the small cabin boat and perhaps rather than Drascombe the model to improve on should be the Cornish Crabbers - something like the Crabber 22. A trailable, seaworthy, small family cruising boat, but rather more performance oriented than the Crabbers with more modern design/construction. Given C.Crabbers prices you should even be able to make a decent profit on it!

I agree with Brian Pearson\\\'s comments. I\\\'ve decided a BayRaider is probably a bit long for the room I\\\'ll have available. I think a water ballasted 16 footer would be brilliant. Cheers.

I kind of agree with Guy.

But the \\\'Cornish\\\' team have got a lot of stuff right that seems to have caught a particular market\\\'s attention.
*traditional looks without traditional maintenance
*stable family/couple oriented platform with no pretense of high performance
*high quality with no compromise to price within the smaller boat market as defined above

Although I don\\\'t know this as a fact, I would not be surprised if they were the first to do these 3 things, and have established a reputation and high resale value as a result.

It is a mistake to think, \\\"if I can sell a similar boat cheaper I will capture their market\\\".

So best not to go toe-to-toe, I would think...

When I think of BayRaiders (and I must confess to thinking of them far more than I reasonably should) I think of Memory 19\\\'s, North Quay 19\\\'s, Drascombe\\\'s, and perhaps surprisingly the Hawk 20. They all provide adventurous, trailerable sailing.

What would an adventurous, performance-oriented, yet traditional looking alternative to the Cornish boats look like? Even if you never made one it would be great to see your design for one.

From the contributions so far it appears that the waterballast system is indeed the key feature for new boats.

Then, there is a divide between a smaller ca. 16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' open boat vs. a cruiser (cabin) version of an existing 20\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' - 22\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' boat.

Swallowboats already have quite a few smaller open boats, which may not have waterballast, but which are nevertheless very stable and sailing very well. (We just had a direct comparison between the Storm 17 and both Raiders in the Morbihan, and the Storm pulled through in all conditions including a choppy F7 without fail.)

So, my thought would be that a new cabin boat would improve the overall spread of the range of Swallowboats best.
 
22\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' would be my favourite length, because you want a bit of comfort insid a cabin AND still have enough cockpit length left for the full crew to sit in the open, and a dog.

The SeaRaider really isn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t a good substrate, it is purpose designed for speed so it has too little beam to offer real cabin comfort.

Having seen and sailed the BayRaider last week, I think she has everything for an excellent cabin version too, except maybe 2 extra feet in length. So, may I suggest to think about a Bayraider Cruiser, which would have 2 extra feet of length built into the hull? She would compare remarkably well against the Drifter 22 and the Cornish boats, which all suffer from trailering overweight, you cannot even step their masts singlehanded.

Claus

Hi Claus, thought of you all while it was so windy last week. Could you please say some more about Storm \\\"pulling through\\\" the Raiders. With Matt expressing possibe interest in a Storm GRP kit perhaps if she is reasonably fast then Swallow do not need a 16 Raider type. I had though the Raider family would outperform the Storm family, quite resonably since I think because of their different design criteria.

Thanks, Brian

Brian,
I had not wanted to say that the Storm 17 did outperform the Raiders last week, but that she went bravely through all the same awkward conditions very well, and performed very nicely, considering she is 3\\\' shorter than the BR and 5\\\' shorter than SR, and had a crew of four fully grown ups. The BR had 2 and the SR had 3 crew.

I would really say the S 17 is so good there does not need to be a Raider 16 as well, at least not immediately as the next boat to be brought out by Swallow.

Claus

So...

Looks like a 22\\\', cabined, water ballasted, performance oriented, BayRaider bigger sibling with lots of manageable sail is next on the drawing board!

:)

Such a boat would certainly interest me and would be more competitve as a compeitor to the Coaster. An alternative to the Shrimper would be too heavy for easy towing.

Ian

In view of the unseasonally wet weather I think any new boat should be 300 cubits long and constructed of Gopher wood.

Hi Jeff,
We laugh at the unseasonably wet weather: we snap our fingers at downpours: we sneer at thunderstorms: we have a lid on OUR boat!
(Er.. and, it must be said, a dry suit.)
Becalmed in the middle of Carsington Reservoir in heavy rain was made much more civilized by the ability to brew up hot coffee in a nice dry cabin. I almost enjoyed the row back to the pontoon.  Only wish Matt could have fitted the Cardigan Bay Lugger with self bailers. After the last drenching I had to empty 3 bucketfulls from the cockpit before I could stop the floor boards floating. Don’t talk to me about water ballast !

About time to re-open the discussion, which kind of Swallowboat boat may be coming next, or which should.

We will be doing two events in France in the summer next year, and in that connection had to look for onshore accommodation. We eventually succeeded, but maybe buying a cabin sailer would be a more economical solution.
So, how about a cabin version of the BR? Anyone else for it too?
C.

I would support such a project although I think the length of the Sea Raider would lend it self to a cabin version. The right combination of performance and trailerability I think would make it a good prospect for good sales.

When is the BR and SR going to be available as a panel kit.

Ian

Matt mentioned BR could be available as panel kit early next year

Claus, sailed on a friend\\\'s Hawk 20 cabin version in the summer. The cabin in quite small, more a storage area. A full canopy tent over the whole boat cockpit length would probably be a much more practical space.

Ian, Brian,
the SeaRaider is not beamy enough to possibly offer any cabin comfort.

The BR is beamier and more multi-purpose. In particular, the BR is using it\\\'s aft length (incl. O/B well, mizzen mast positioning) much more economical than the SR, which I think already compensates for its being 2\\\' shorter than SR.

I agree with what you write about the Hawk, Brian. The Drascombe Coaster is a similar case. Both boats are old designs, the Coaster goes back almost 30 years. I am optimistic one can do better today.
Novel option could be a raisable cockpit roof like in some campervans, and/or a different smaller \\\'foredeck\\\' space, due to general use of jib furling gear from inside the cockpit.
As an analogy, also cars today make better use of limited space than they generally did 30 years ago.
C.

How would people feel about a pop top roof on a cruising boat/yacht, so as to create more headroom. The Norfolk broads cruisers have them but they are not sea boats. I am sure with modern materials it could be designed strong enough. I am worried that it might be a hard sell to the more conservative boat buying public. Any opinions?
Regards,
Matt Newland

I, for one, don\\\'t know what a \\\'pop top\\\' roof is - but I bet Tony could make some humorous comments on one.

Anyone have a link to what they look like or how they work?

Matt,

As an interested spectator who might be persuaded. I see some advantages and some dis-advantages.

A pop top roof would allow the boat to remain compact and you would not have the cuddy look that some day sailers have.

Sails should be easier to handle without the obstruction of the roof.

It would allow more comfort whilst moored up i.e.sitting room.

There is little need for this headroom whilst underway. As long as you have access to the cabin to store items you need whilst underway e.g.Waterproofs, cameras etc.

The disdavantages would be. What would it look like? Are the side walls going to be solid,  cloth material?

Durability, Leak proof.?

Ease of construction.

Let\\\'s see some of your ideas in sketch or CAD drawings.

Ian Cowie

I have sailed Hunter boats from their yard at Ludham www.huntersyard.co.uk they all have lifting cabin tops but need their tent covers on at night to keep the rain out.

Some friends sailed a boat on the Broads were the cabin top lifted with a flick off the switch, it had a power supply to work the hydraulics.

The Hunter boats have no engine so you have to push the top up manually.   

David

In the latest Water Craft No 66 there is an article on the Barton Classic, a Broads yacht with a lifting top. At the top of page 16 there is a picture of the yacht with the roof lifted.

Is this the sort of thing you have in mind? The front of the roof stays in place and the back lifts highest to make a wedge shape.

\\\'Pop top roof\\\'?

Certainly nobody wants a roof top that can go POP!
It must be a given that such a rooftop -when lowered and secured- must be sturdy enough to withstand the worst of weathers out there, and must not be leaking.

\\\'Lifting Coachroof\\\' seems to be the right expression. Thanks, Brian, for that reference article in WC 66. I like that hinged design, looks neat and solid.

Looks, I think especially a lifting coachroof -when collapsed while the boat is under way- would help to keep the boat look pretty, through allowing a low silhouette of the boat. A low silhouette roof also would give less windage at sea and when the boat is being trailered.
Other small cabin sailers today without lifting coachroof must have unproportionally large and boxy cabin roofs, limitating the helmsmans front lookout view. I had that once and would not like something like that again.

BTW,
there is currently some discussion of lifting coachroofs on the YBW forum, http://www.ybw.com/forums/showflat.php?Number=1662115 .

I certainly would not consider aswallow boat owneras \\\'Conservative\\\' , the designs seem to be inotive , certainleywhy not have a Pop top cabin, but would it not be more simple to arrange a well fitting cockpit tent?

Gerald Turner

I would agree with Gerald (above) about a well fitted cockpit tent. This has been discussed on this forum previously. I think that the dodger that was on the BR at Morbihan in May, is a great starting point for a tent to attach to. The dodger seemed pretty useful on its own for basic shelter underway.

In regards to a new boat based on the Bay Raider, with a cabin and a lifting top or pop top, I think the cabin could only provide laying down and stooping accomodation.

Putting a cabin top with useful sitting room on the boat may look pretty strange. So a lower cabin top would need to have a lifting top to provide this. Maybe also extending the cabin sides to the gunwales. Having been aboard a BR last May, and looking over my pictures from the event, I am not sure if the hull has enough volume to make a cabin useful.

I think the Cardigan Bay Lugger with cabin has a more pronounced shear on it, so the coachroof does not appear to be as high as it might be on the BR. I stand to be corrected if necessary on this. Just my opinion.

I am sure Matt has sketches on the the various layouts possible. Will look forward to them. :)

Other considerations are that the mast tabernacle may have to be on the cabin top, and that the foot of the sail will have to raised, with possible loss in sail area. Just lengthening the mast to suit, may not help, as this will create more heeling. The boat weight and stability will already be impacted by the addition of the cabin. So then you look at more ballast and the boat gets heavier, needing more power, creating more heeling, and on and on. 

There are a number of so called pocket cruisers here in North America that use lifting cabin tops for extra standing room. Cataline 22 & 25. Sirius 21. Ensenada. MacGregor, Rhodes. The tops generally lift up vertically on tubular legs, so are horizontal rather than pivoting on an angle at the forward edge. Most have drop sides in canvas with screens. As mentioned in the owner\\\'s write up on the Cardigan Bay Lugger, \\\"they all seemed to be intended for export. You could tell. They were mostly the same shape as a shipping container\\\" Most of these boats have higher topsides than the BR to be able fit in the accommodations. A lot of people want the RV on the water. Is that where this design discussion is going? I don\\\'t think that is what we are trying to get to.

So I guess I am back to the open boat, with dodger and a tent. My present boat has those, and also a small bimini for sun shelter at the helm. How do I fit a bimini on the BR? They are very useful here in the summer when sailing for 6 or 7 hours in strong sun, and 25-30 degrees C heat. Would do well in the southern U.S. too.

Gerald, Bill,
nothing wrong with rigging a tent neatly over the BayRaider, only that does not answer the question of this thread \\\'What Boat Next?\\\'. Because, the BR is already there.

Another point: Open boats are for one clientele, cabin boats are for another. To have both open boats and cabin boats on offer increases the product range spread and thus increases the markets reach.

Also, hard roof cabin boats are better for sailing through the night, and they give better protection in severe weather and protect better from breakers. Cabin boats are somewhat better suited for long distance journeys across open seas.

Thanks for bringing us back on course Claus. Good points.

I have thought more about some points for discussion and design consideration.

I am just asking the questions below to help focus on specifics/likes/dislikes and stimulate more discussion. Maybe Matt already has his design all done. :), although I expect the new shops are taking up much of his time.

Hope you can indicate your likes/dislikes and maybe suggest other points to consider.

Assuming a 22\\\' +/- OAL as has been put forward earlier in this discussion

Beam: The BR is 6\\\'7\\\". Could this be increased at all 6\\\'10\\\" or more for more cabin space? Do you like to be able to row? The wider beam may make this more difficult, or require longer oars.

Cockpit length vs cabin length: Do you like to be be able to stretch out on the cockpits seats, or provide extra accommodation if necessary? This may require the increase beam as mentioned above, for wider cockpit seats. What length of cockpit seats? 6\\\'6\\\"? (I am 6\\\'3\\\")

Cockpit motor well vs transom mounted OB: The former has worked very well on the Swallow designs that have it now. If cockpit size with a cabin is a concern, would the motor have to be moved aft?

Rig: Ketch with a self tending jib as BR, or lug rig as Cardigan Bay, or something else? Free standing spars with no standing rigging? Free standing main with roller furler? Is a 2 piece carbon main spar possible for transport and still have a sail track? Cat Ketch with sprit booms?
Main sheet positioning? Any traveller?

Centerboard/Keel/Ballast: Single centerboard, twin keels, small ballasted keel with centerboard, weighted centerboard, water ballast as BR/SR. Combination of?

Cabin coach roof: Full beam width for more interior volume or narrower with side decks? Some full beam cabins cause a very large step up to get to the \\\"deck\\\". Handholds going forward are not as available.

Foredeck: In a longer boat of 22\\\' is there room for hawsepipe leading to a locker or other space for anchor rode forward? Can an anchor be readily positioned over the stem, or just set in chocks on the deck? The longer the boat, the more difficulty with taking an anchor and rode from a cockpit locker forward, over/around the cabin. Or are you able to lower the anchor from the cockpit and lead the rode forward to the bow?

Cabin interior: Accommodation for how many? 2,3,4? Seating or just sleeping? Provision for head, portable? Cooking space, or out in the cockpit under a dodger?

Maximum towing weight: What does the weight need to be kept to for the most people to be able to trailer without a large vehicle?

Bill,
thanks for putting together a lot of details. All relevant, but they must be put into perspective in order of necessities and priorities.

There is one ruling point missing from your list, and that is the target price of the future boat. No good thinking out details that would push the boat beyond general affordability.

I think your last point, weight, should get top priority. Meaning lowest possible weight, under 500 kgs max. on the trailer. Few people today realise that the low weight issue alone will decide about \\\'trailerability\\\' in future. CO2 reduction legislation will push car sizes and engines down dramatically in the very near future, so in order to remain a true \\\'trailer sailer\\\' for many years to come, the new boat must not put on any much weight through large size or built-in hull ballast. \\\'Weight on Demand\\\' i.e. waterballast is the ideal -and probably only- solution fit for the future.

In that sense, lowest possible weight and lowest possible cost and price, I would favour a 20 ft. boat over a 22 ft. . What really matters is not the LOA, but the waterline length, and there the standard 20ft. BayRaider is already longer than the 22ft. Drascombe Coaster, the Cape Cutter or the Cornish Shrimper.

With best wishes for Christmas and the New Year!

Hi all,
just some ideas, for one people or a couple or two close friends living/camping one week aboard a little cabin-sail-boat.
I thank Matt for all the nice design-work already done.

Bill, I ld follow your last message plan.
- As you say Claus, total weight of boat+trailer is important: for me it s around 500kg;
- water-ballast, but with foot-well in cabin entrance; - prefering small length (minimizing price and hassle, so to use more the boat!): around 16 feet (French canals: free cabin-boating: up to 5m), may be 17feet, with transom (not to immerse wheel-bearings when launching/retreiving), with higher bow/more pronounced sheer (and a more rounded/volume hull?) sheer giving lower cabin-aspect, Bill as you told; beam:1.9m;
- rowing: only fewtimes;
- cockpit length: about 6 feet (wider benches/settee so one could lay-down); not a too wide cockpit-opened space whether swamped; engine preferably in a well;
- ketch rig, standing rigging/tabernacle with possibility to get the mast quickly lowered (bridges); - twin pivoting bilge boards;
- low cabin, mainly for laying-down and keeping gears dry/secure (lockable to store items when at restaurant), with : small side-decks, hatch in front-deck (for anchor line), 2 berths (mostly 70/75cm from bunk to roof)+ 2 sitting (85cm from sit to roof: if there is enough place under/behind these for the twin boards) for people about up to 1.75m (sitting low, for eating/reading before falling aslept, when raining or cold/damp evenings, since sitting low such as inside a sport-car can be comfy with stretching some ones legs?), taller people: under the canopy.
- for the toilet: perhaps small system of www.car-a-fun.de/pl6169... with plastic bag (liquids still could go through the bucket?): Lid-bag Toilet Cactus (but without its special folding seat; could be much lower, under the port-side sitting place.
Berths: 1.9m length including these two (lower) sittings that would have some thicker cushions or small store-box upon them.
If the side-twin-boards don t leave enough place for the sittings, one sitting place is at the middle of the cabin (facing stern)and the toilet sliding stored/centered under the bridge-deck, and in the cockpit at night.
Or under this middle of the cabin could be used the kitchen-box (stove stored in cockpit locker, that can go outside upon bridge-deck under canopy): one ply-sheet+two holes: burner-stove and bowl-sink + flexible water-tank under.

It s only my two cents...
still looking for the small cabin sailing...
I understand compromis/choices have to be made between  ideas!

The problem of a fixed cabin boat for sub 20\\\' LOA, is that what ever you design ,will be a compromise, my current boat is a Hunter 19\\\', it is fine for occasional weekending, but cabin space is limited,the upside is it has a large cockpit which makes live-a-board use more livable with a cockpit tent fitted,
the Europa that suceeded the 19\\\' utilised the space more effectively, but to get to the foredeck you have to clamber over the coachroof.
There are on the market other similar concepts ,such as the Shrimper and Red fox,nee Hunter 20 (both Selecta yachts), Perhaps a design with a main cabin to the rear of the boat with a lower foredeck which would be able to take a double berth under, and a central cockpit would be radical enough to  make sales, I am thinking along the lines of the Atlantic rowboats with cabins both ends .

Gerald Turner

Gerald:
A main cabin at the rear end of the boat - a fascinating idea.:

The transom stern section lends itself much better to a double berth positioning than the narrow bow.

Then, there would be no conflict with the positioning of the heavy main mast or with working the anchor at the bow.

A rear cabin would not obstruct the helmsman\\\'s most important field of view to forward.

The rudder could be operated through a rudder yoke, works fine on the SeaRaider.

A central cockpit would be better protected from breaking following seas.

And even if there was an outboarder well inside the cabin, that could be put to double use too, using your own imagination and discretion.

I think a rear cabin is a truly brilliant novel concept. Good thinking!

Claus

Well Claus ,I have to say that the rear cabin is not my Original Idea, WhenI was sailing at the Moribhan rally 2007, a boat came by of about 22\\\' 25\\\' size with a cabin mounted where the cockpit is normally, with a cat Ketch rig and a tiller which extended over the cabin top to the rudder, the rest of the boat seemed to be left open from the cabin forwards.

I would suggest that it was a home build,as it was a multi chined hull, but it did seem to work !

my next dream sailboat? she could be 17 feet with low cabin, not slow, a nice well thought sailing-camping-machine, with small cockpit footwell, water ballast... 
Among some interesting designs with low cabin, I see: Chebacco (but with more raked transom), Stir Ven, Winkle Brig...

Brian pretty much sums it up for me as light weight and smaller version is what coastal dinghy cruising is all about. Much as I find the BR very impressive its a bit big for the solo sailor. I have considered the Storm 15 and 17 but not sure about the double enders. A 15 or 16 footer with water ballast would be the rizzle shnizzel and skip the 17-18 version. Kit form so I can afford it!

I would add:
a) to be rowable and and to have outboard bracket or well.

b) To be mounted on a breakback trailer

c) rig options eg forward mounted mast with mainsail only or further aft with mainsail and jib to give passengers something to do.

Charles,
not that I myself would see much sense in a cabin boat of 17 ft, because everything must be very very cramped then and the seagoing qualities cannot be too good.
But I think it would be a good idea to start a design process with a  17 ft. hull in mind. Because, if one would succeed in fitting agreeable accommodation and space on a 17 ft. boat, then after transferring the clever solutions found from that finally to a 20ft. hull this would surely result in a very neatly thought through layout and very spacious solution then.
BTW, in the current PBO there is an article about a guy with a 15ft. self-built cabin sailer who has circumnavigated most of England, Wales and Scotland with that, imagine.
(However, one has to bear in mind that home-built boats do not have to be RCD compliant with regards to safety and testing, so very compact solutions are possible that would be illegal in a proper yard-built boat like the Swallowboats.)   
Claus

Claus and each,

just a 18 feet design of a cabin boat:
http://benho2.tripod.com/Ataraxia/ataraxia_review.htm

From this, for you, what would you change?

Perhaps, for me: a some more vertical stem, more freeboard (giving less high cabin), buoyancy and floatation, waterballast and twin pivoting side boards.

Charles

Charles,
since you asked,
these are all very nice little boats you mention, but they are quite conventional. They are on the market for many years already,
but if they have not exactly taken over the market so far, there must be a reason. Too small? Overweight? Poor performance? No RCD? Too expensive? If you like them, fine. But apparently they do not lure you yourself enough so you would have bought any of them.

What I expect from a new Swallowboats cabin sailer would be a thoroughly novel concept with better safety, better space usage, and better performance than what is on the market thus far. The new BayRaider with its waterballast system is a wonderful substrate for a new cabin boat. Swallowboats should not come out with a boat that does not add noticeable better \\\'value\\\' to boat users than the old boats do.

Claus, and each,

You re right, boats I mentionned have a too conventionnal cabin/hull; some with hulls story of last small fishing row-sailboats.

We camp-sailed (with childr.) a Coaster years, (Med Spain coast and rivers): many qualities... but a too high cabin!
So I ll sail another small cabin-boat. 
I mentionned these small boats, with transom, also because more sheer would help visually the cabin (such as in the elegant Cardigan Bay Lugger)? I was just dreaming my next boat!

Excuse-me that my messages were too far away from discussing the BR cabin-boat concept.


Charles

Charles,

No need to apologize for mentioning that fine looking boat. Thank you for the link. Each time we see another boat we learn something and that may be just the small detail we would like to add to a new boat. Or we may see something that we may want to make sure we do not add/use/duplicate.
Discussion of previous \\\"conventional\\\" designs helps us move forward to new designs or improvements of past designs.

As far as space utilization on a <20\\\' vessel, I don\\\'t think there is any thing that is revolutionary, just evolutionary. Sand bags along the centreboard to water ballast as an example.

I am interested in the previously mentioned here aft cabin concept. Would still require something forward as a shelter, maybe just a dodger? Claus mentioned the fact that a boat with a cabin forward does give crew protection from breaking waves. So would we actually have a centre cockpit design? Sleeping accomodation aft, cockpit in the middle, a couple of seats with portable head forward under a cabin top? How would the aft cabin handle an outboard motor and the need to access it to start it, and possibly steer with it in tight situations?

I like the electric option on the boat you linked to. That will become more common going forward. Has anyone on this forum any experience with electric motors? Fixed or outboard type like the Torqeedo?

I also noted the fact that the portable toilet on the boat you mentioned was plumbed for pumping out on deck. That is the only legal way to use a portable toilet on board  in this province of Ontario. Since we are in a relatively closed freshwater system, the Great Lakes, and hundreds and hundreds of smaller inland lakes and canal systems, great care must be taken with the handling of black water.

However, I digress from the topic at hand - boat design.  :)

Here is a project, only to view a sort of front-cabin space with canopy, in an eighteen feet boat; evolution of the cabin/canopy such as in the Shrimper 17, with possibility to close it.

http://fr.cosasdebarcos.com/barco_nuevo_velaligera_49226110071449696757496966514556.html

The folding boards would need to be watertight, and where to store these heavy boards (when open)? problem if these would flex in the middle when walking upon?
With such a cabin but aft, center cockpit and a dodger in front under which one could site down when sailing (small foot-well)?
:)

Yes, that rear cabin concept quite sparks off many new ideas.
I wrecked my brain where I had seen a rear cabin on a small yacht before. Found it:  \\\'Buckler Mk II\\\' (http://www.friday-ad.co.uk/AdRef/F167802/Class/652/Web/FullAdDetails.asp)

Not a very pretty sight today, I admit, but it is amazing how much space they could fit on a 24 ft. LOA boat (including the clipper bowsprit I spose) using the rear space too: Even TWO separate cabins, toilet, inboarder, chart table etc. .

Bill, it beats me why people can be interested in \\\'portable toilets\\\'.? - I know lodza things I would rather do than share a small cabin with a half-full chemical thing. I think they are truly awful.

Bill, Claus and each,
Quite interesting info in your messages.
About aft cabin:
http://www.annoncesbateau.com/display_announce.php?categorie=voilier&lettre=&constructeur=&modele=T7+DERIVEUR&chemin_url=simple&annonce=195706

As the originator of this aft cabin concept to this Forum,I had envisaged
1) a half decked foredeck with a v berth under.
2) a center cockpit
3) the aft cabin does present a few problems with those who wish to use a motor, but I would solve that problem by having an internal engine well on the centre line with perhaps a opening hatch mouted on the roof to stand and control engine from.,or have remote controls for the engine mounted on the rear of the boat , keeping engine smells out of the cabin,the engione would need to breathe anyhow.

As cluase mentioned earlier,the advantage of having an in cabin inboard well, is that you would have a ready made Sea toilet!

I would hope that the boat would be rowable.

Gerald

Charles,
This is a good looking boat but what about the draft? I started a thread recently on the Openboat forum about draft! This boat has 14 inches and the consensus on the other forum was that such a boat would seriously hinder ones ability to beach and launch. Most dayboats have something like 7-8 inches.

John

Claus and each,

just a 18 feet design of a cabin boat:
http://benho2.tripod.com/Ataraxia/ataraxia_review.htm

From this, for you, what would you change?

Perhaps, for me: a some more vertical stem, more freeboard (giving less high cabin), buoyancy and floatation, waterballast and twin pivoting side boards.

Charles

\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"... This boat has 14 inches and the consensus on the other forum was that such a boat would seriously hinder ones ability to beach and launch. Most dayboats have something like 7-8 inches.\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" John.

John,
you re right: the Ataraxia design may not be so easy to launch/retreive.
my experience with trailer: 12 inches draught can still be easy to launch/retreive from a tilting trailer without getting more than the trailer-tires immersed in (salty) water; the trailer needs to be enough long after its axle (moving it frontwards, in the right way, when possible);
for me, some flat (wide v) after-bottom (without skeg there) is needed to help the hull floating in shallow water?
and a small keel is important (and skeg, not right aft)  to protect the hull bottom when running aground (also when launching/retreiving alone, boat sometimes runs aground upon concrete ramp-sole?), and would help sometimes (with more draught) directional stability?
(excuse my poor English).

Charles

Taking as read my very strong vote for a 15/16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' Solentraider, can I also throw another curved ball. Swallow boats built it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s market on samll lightweight car top boats such as Sandpiper and Osprey. Perhaps they are not very commercially viable, not sure, but there is no doubt about their place in Swallow Boats history. The Bayraider is such a terific boat that it will sell and lead that size of Swallow Boats sales for a long time. Perhaps there is no need for another boat close in size, it would just take sales from Bayraider.

The new Trooper is lovely and will grow a small fleet of 14\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' and perhaps 16\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' models.

I still feel that replacements for Sandpiper and Osprey are missing. This area of the market, sailing canoes, small narrow sail and oar boats are popular, people can build in their garages and costs are reasonable. The people who build these first boats can then become builders of the larger boats.

So, how about a lovely very light sail and oar boat along the lines of

http://www.theinvisibleworkshop.blogspot.com/

Gavin Atkin\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s Light Trow

or http://www.gartsideboats.com/bob.php

Paul Gartside\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s Bob rowing sailing sea skiff.

Or my current favourite
http://picasaweb.google.com/EclecticTraveler/BuffleheadSailingLowerSaranacLake

Bufflehead, Hugh Horton\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s lovely sailing canoe, just longing to be put into production. I will order the first one!!

Brian.

Hello,
Thank you for all your comments. At the moment we are still very busy getting into our new workshop, and finishing the GRP BayRaider design.
I have updated the \\\"on the drawing board\\\" link on your left, with two new designs. One is the BayCruiser, discussed here, and the other is a 24ft pocket yacht that\\\'s been on my drawing board for years. The workshop will have the space to build her, if we can find a customer...
Lastly, we have not forgotten where we came from, and small boats are a real passion of ours. We do have plans for the smaller end of our range which will become clearer in due course.
Best wishes,
Matt

When I first saw the 24\\\' cruiser last week, I thought \\\"wow, that is a big step up from the 20-22\\\' with cabin we were discussing.\\\" Now with the additional posting of the BayCruiser yesterday, I see the progression. Thanks for putting up the first drawings. Will be interested to see details and layouts each. I have a number of questions that I am sure will be answered as you put up more info.

Matt, very nice. Is BayCruiser to be GRP from the same mould as BayRaider with an extra top strake? When I click on the pictures they pop up too big for my screen so cannot see the hull? Brian.

Brian,
Yes. The BR Hull with extended topsides.
If you click on the image and then use your arrow keys you should be able to see it all. Does this work?
Regards,
Matt

Matt,

I experience what Brian described as well. Clicking on the image opens it in a new window, but there are no horizontal or vertical scroll bars on the window. I first noticed that last year when you posted early BayRaider images. Should have mentioned it to you. Thought maybe it was my computer or connection. I now work around it by saving the image to a folder and open it up in my photo editing program (Picasa).

Some of your images load up completely pretty fast, with no scroll bars. Others indicate they are downloading for ages. I have just now had an image open for over 10 minutes and it says it is still downloading. Maybe try reducing the image size on your end. If it finishes downloading the scroll bars may appear, or the frame size may adjust.

Have to say though, I really like how you involve complete strangers with your designs by asking for input. You have a good thing going!

Regards, Bill

Bill, Brian,
Do your arrow keys work to view the full image? See my message above...
Best wishes,
Matt

Try key F11 on your key board this should give you the Vertical scroll bars.

Regards David

ing

clever man. thanks. Brian

The Baycruiser s first drawing shows beautiful simple lines; I m keeping my eyes open, waiting for design progression towards the grp Baycruiser.

Some points I ld like:
- Total weight of boat still under 500kg: possible?
- Grp hull & cockpit (aft cockpit & side-decks grp Bayraider) with (light) plypoxy cabin & frontdeck: possible? also for better insulation under coachroof.
- Cockpit benches: enough long to lay oneself down (1.9m?);
- Cabin: it s a nice low shape in the profile drawing; in my mind, in a (very) small boat, the cabin is a tent and therefore here would become luxurious by tent standards, even if lower in frontward part. Front of mast: opening hatch on top of cabin (airflow, anchor-line).
Sufficient for 2 people: in the aft part (backwards), sitting headroom giving two seats, at each side of cabin entrance, with feet in a well (well in the ballast tank?); 2 sleeping-bunks and a porta-potti place (in the middle / bridge deck?);
- under-hull protection for grounding / trailering (brass with hard-wood keel fitted along the boat, with 2 shallow wooden side-bilges) ?
- 1 hand-pump for draining cabin well (and another for emptying totally the ballast tank, before trailering?). Anchor well. Sprayhood. Tabernacle.

Would it be possible to reef the mizzen or unuseful?

Well said, Charles. I especially agree with the cabin... luxurious by tent standards... frame of mind. The Bayraider cabin looks a little larger than the CBL version but you still wouldnt want to think of it as a liveaboard. Just one point. The fore hatch on the CBL is great for ventilation but for anchoring etc I always go over the cabin top. It is much quicker than wriggling through the cabin, opening the hatch and getting your bedding wet into the bargin then wriggling back again. On the lugger I have lazy jacks for a hand hold, cabin rails for a safety line and with the mast set ahead of the cabin, of course, all the anchor or mooring line work can be done with one arm around the mast. It all feels quite safe!
It is possible to reef the mizzen. See the Technical thread. Not tested it fully yet though.

Matt,

Coming to this thread a little late - but I want to take you back to a conversation we had in the summer of 2006 about the LochRaider (my garagemax boat).

I am now getting closer to being able to move ahead with this and would welcome your thoughts.

B. Regards

Ian

Hello Ian,
Not sure if you wanted other peoples thoughts, but here are mine.
Swallow Boats will be spending time this summer properly moving into the new workshop (we are in, but we have a lot of internal infrastructure - shelves, vacuum extraction, workbenches etc - to set up).
We also need to put some time and effort into marketing our current range more effectively, instead of just ploughing on with new designs right away.
I have had some serious interest in the BayCruiser concept and at the moment that is pencilled in for the Autumn, Winter and Spring, but most new boat development demands a customer #1, so we will see.
If you are interested, then I would be happy to hear from you, the nature of my business is that I cant ignore someone threatening to pay me.
However, I cant make any promises at this stage obviously.

Best wishes,
Matt

Ian, could you expand on your LochRaider please. My \\\"Garagemax\\\" would be 16\\\'6\\\" on its own, down to about 13\\\" sitting on a combi for winter storage. Brian